Daily Kos

Oliver Gets it 1/2 Right

Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 09:42:17 AM PDT

Too much work, too much travel, so little time to blog.  But I wanted to be sure to highlight yesterday's post by Oliver Willis on the intersection between the Black Church and Democratic Politics from yesterday:  The Old Hotness.

The money quote from it, to me, is this one:

Who is the American leader, in all of our history, who was most impactful at conjoining his religious beliefs and political action? It's not Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or any of the agents of intolerance on the right. It's Martin Luther King. That is, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. of the Ebenezer Baptist Church. I often imagine King and other leaders before and since in the black church (yes, including Sharpton and Jackson) saying "I've got your religious left right here".


I think its great so many groups popped up espousing progressive religion, but I fear too many of them are in the mold of trying to appeal to conservative evangelicals - mostly southerners - who would vote for Satan before they would vote for a Democrat (I take pride in the fact that the bulk of haters vote GOP). Instead of liberals going to the existing religious left who pioneered political action and faith decades ago and saying "guide us", people created brand new organizations that too often ain't fooling anybody (If I hear anyone else say "we have values too" or any other empty platitude I'll go postal) and aren't - ironically - preaching to anyone.


The black churches of America aren't as fashionable and sexy perhaps as these other new organizations, but they've been there, they've done the homework, and they've produced tangible results we see every day in our lives as Americans. If they die out or fade away as a political force, the Democratic party and liberalism is doomed. Ignoring them and what they've done is a travesty.


Oliver is certainly correct in asserting what I think he is saying:  the pre-existing, highly successful model, of the religious political left (for want of a better term) is Black people, and the Black church.  And yet, when it comes to the new dialogue of reaching out to liberal and progressive people of faith, people are creating new models instead of embracing and following the lead of the one that both already exists and has delivered electoral success to the Democratic Party over and over and over again.


Unfortunately, Oliver takes that central premise and makes some assumptions that I think miss the point of the debate that started, I guess, when Jim Wallis called out Markos (who then acted as if he didn't get it, as Markos often does in the middle of controversy generated by his words IMO, and let others front for him instead of him speaking for himself) over about the fact that oftentimes, on DailyKOS in particular but more generally on left-wing sites, there is active verbal disdain and insult levied at religion and those who hold religious belief.  


Where Bro. Oliver gets it wrong is in allowing himself to fall victim to a common deflection technique I've seen on the left where religion (and other controversial subjects in which the mirror is held up to itself) is concerned:  he sets up a strawman and then knocks it down when he says:

And yes, the idea of these mythical Democrats who persecute the religious that nobody can ever name stinks to high heaven).

 


The strawman is the idea that anyone has ever accused folks on the left of "persecuting" the religious.  I follow religious discussions pretty closely on most of the left-wing sites, and nobody has ever made that accusation.  Thus, Oliver's dismissal of the accusation is dismissing a phantom that he and others who are uncomfortable with confronting the problem of folks hating on religious folks on left-wing sites head-on simply made up.  Nobody is claiming any movement, or any organized effort, to "persecute the religious."


What the complaint is, and always has been, is that too many on the left who despise religion for their own personal reasons -- and I'm using the word despise quite deliberately, because every time this issue comes up I'm accused of capping on atheists and while the group I'm referring to often refers to itself as atheists most atheists were raised right and do not engage in the juvenile behavior that is generating so much complaint on the left from religious people -- have been encouraged, rewarded with mojo on sites that hand it out, and not called to task for insulting the very intelligence and ability to think and reason of those who call themselves religious, even allies on the left.  When words like "irrational" and "unable to reason" and "deluded" and "psychosis" regularly find themselves in a dialogue between supposed adults about religion over and over again, only someone who is either (a) an ostrich or (b) self-serving or (c) a liar can fail to see the injury and deliberate harm.  And none of this harm is excused by the fact that folks are fighting the same political fight.  It also isn't excused by the fact that someone feels hurt about what the Catholic Church did or did not do to them or someone they love, the fact that their families may have psychically injured them while claiming to be religious or even that God does not intervene to prevent individual or global human suffering -- all reasons that I have seen written by folks who not only disclaim belief in religion (a non-issue) but can't just stop there, but instead go to the well of insult.  


Oliver Willis, presumably knowing some Black religious folks, knows that our people wouldn't put up with that shit, in our churches or in our political movements, and would drop-kick someone with both barrels of the Lord (metaphorically) for one reason and one reason only:  no matter what folks believe personally, coming in with such talk is inherently disrespectful to the majority of our people and our church communities which have proven their political worth.  It is only in the white-dominated blogosphere that it is even tolerated, based on my experience.  Maybe it's the perception of critical mass, maybe it's the sense that in their real lives they are frustrated having to conform to the social rules of etiquette when talking about religion, who knows.  Whatever the reason, the left too often empowers folks who believe that their disdain of religion makes them superior intellects, reasoners and thinkers and that they therefore have license to ignore social convention when making their arguments.  


By writing the above, Oliver essentially gives this type of person and this type of behavior a pass even as he rightfully seems to highlight that the blogosphere routinely ignores Black religious political movements when assessing and deciding upon strategic approaches to reaching "the religious left."  


The other place where Oliver gets it 1/2 wrong is by assuming that

I think its great so many groups popped up espousing progressive religion, but I fear too many of them are in the mold of trying to appeal to conservative evangelicals - mostly southerners - who would vote for Satan before they would vote for a Democrat (I take pride in the fact that the bulk of haters vote GOP).


As a regular reader, even if not participant, in one of the sites he links to (Street Prophets) this fear has no merit.  It is an as-yet statistically untested assumption that "conservative evangelicals" would vote for Satan before a Democrat.  It may be a "truth" on the left, but there is no actual evidence of it.  But more importantly, such a statement undermines Oliver's own thesis:  It is inarguable by anyone who spends any time in Black churches that these same churches that Oliver rightfully points out have routinely brought political success to the Democratic Party ARE "conservative evangelical churches."  They are evangelical in the traditional meaning of the term:  they see their role as spreading the Good News.  They are definitely "conservative" - you will not find a lot of emotional support for things that those of us on the left believe are issues the black church SHOULD support, the equal human worth of gays and lesbians at the top of the list IMO.  Many lifelong Black churchgoers abhor abortion rights, for example -- indeed, the majority of African-Americans believe that abortion should be illegal in most if not all circumstances, even as Black folks disproportionately access the abortion right.  They have reached a quiet consensus that it is a necessary evil.  Acceptance of Premarital sex, particuarly amongst minors? They may accept the reality of it -- and indeed, when the babies come, as they often do, they embrace them and the mother, for religious reasons, but you'd be hard pressed to find any Black "conservative evangelical churches" that don't regularly make the immorality of it a topic for Sunday service Gay marriage? Nope.  Patriarchy? You just don't want to know.  You don't get much more "conservative" or "evangelical" than most Black churches -  Especially in the South.


So Oliver's worry, such as it is, furthers the very thing that he is complaining about:  ignoring the role of Black churches and Black churchgoers, by equating them to what (I think) he is really complaining about:  white right-wing fundamentalists who claim to be acting out of religious belief.  Those are not the same thing.  I agree that anyone wasting his time on that group thinking that coalition can exist with it will see that group vote for Satan before a Democrat.  But that group is a tiny minority of "conservative evangelical churches", and any argument that advocates less emphasis on trying to sway "conservative evangelical voters" necessarily gives them far more importance in the political process than they deserve.


The real skill will come in the left again learning how to discern the differences, and to work with religion as a tool for progressive political change, not merely against it as a coopted tool (Coopted by folks who wouldn't know God if he showed up on their lawns with business cards) of progressive political harm.

Tags: Religion, Martin Luther King (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 56 comments

  •  idiocy. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    josephk, ormondotvos

    There was nothing for Kos to "get" in Jim Wallis' comments.  They were incoherent.

    Directing them at Kos made no sense.  None.  

    Hand me down my walking cane, hand me down my hat...

    by Cheez Whiz on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 09:43:48 AM PDT

    •  I don't take Wallis seriously (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wu ming, bronte17, ormondotvos

      He still hasn't repudiated his earlier support of constitutional amendments to outlaw abortion rights and gay marriage. Until he does he isn't fit to be any kind of leader in coalition-building. He's halfway in the enemy camp until he repudiates those views.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:06:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  coalition building (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        xanthe, Heiuan

        black folks, one of the main pillars of the Dem party, aren't exactly gun-ho on the abortion/gay marriage thing either, as Shanikka tried to point out. I happen to be a social conservative too, but i co-exist with a party with the activists on the other side because of economic justice and other issues. that's what being a big party is about.

  •  Interesting stuff (8+ / 0-)

    I guess the question is, in what specific ways are these black evangelical movements different from their white and conservative counterparts? That's probably a discussion we need to be having in more depth.

    Most of us have - reasonably, in my mind - concluded there can be no common ground found at all between us and the white evangelicals who insist on a conservative social agenda. It might be possible to put together unity on economic issues, but since they have a habit of voting against Dems because of the social issues...well, no coalition.

    But is this true of the black churches too? I think I hear you saying that it's not; that even those in that movement who oppose abortion and gay marriage rights have been able to put that aside for a larger political cause, they're just upset about continuing marginalization across the board. And despite my own deep misgivings about religion, I've never been unwilling to work with such folks.

    MLK's approach was founded on the economic issues, the questions of political equality, and of justice. That's where coalition was found before and that is likely where it will be found again. I think what you're asking is, at root, "what is the price of admission? what must people give up to enter into coalition? and what does it mean if whites are telling blacks they have to give up their opposition to abortion rights?"

    They're good questions, even though I am more than happy to tell anyone that entrance into a Democratic coalition means accepting abortion rights as legal and candidates who will support it. It's not as if we get to pick and choose who gets legal rights to control their bodies in order to build the big tent.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 09:56:33 AM PDT

    •  "control their bodies" (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tribalecho, I

      first of all, you realize that this is a white western frame work. the whole "it's my body and i can do what i want with it" that white liberals tend to use to frame the abortion issue. i've heard my pastor say manyt a time that my body was a gift created by God and not to be abused or trashed and that i must exercise responsibility with it. most minorities support abortion as an evil necessity, knowing and confronting what we do in the ways of unequal health care, poverty, deadbeat partners. but i don't ever hear "it's about my bodily autonomy." that's reserved for the white chicks i guess who actually CAN exercise their autonomy because they have the financial resources, health care, etc to do so.

      there are Dem pro-life, anti-gay rights candidates. Blacks and latinos value the Social Gospel as much as we do the social issues. we know the social issue,s indeed, are tied to larger community issues and structural injustices--racism, poverty, etc. that is why you have not seen minorities defect enmasse to the GOP, despite the GOP understanding wayyyy better our religious worldview and the social issues part of it. but we've also lost minority voters on those very issues because white Dems have been to asleep at the wheel to fight the GOP's appeal based on that.

      •  Let's replace "control their bodies" with (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cassandra m, xanthe

        "control their healthcare" since "bodies" is a word that invokes a different perspective.  And childbearing is a healthcare issue for women.

        Also, "bodily autonomy" isn't just reserved for white chicks.

        Women are fertile for approx. 35-45 years of their life. That is a very long time to depend on the accuracy of birth control to manage childbearing responsibilities and the life choices that come with that responsibility.

        Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

        by bronte17 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:41:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  IME (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ConspiracyJack

          Working on reproductive rights issues out here in California over Proposition 85, for example, the statement that actually resonated with Black voters and other people of color completely ignores this whole idea of "rights" and "independence" and "autonomy" - particularly with minors (IME most people of color above a certain age simply do not subscribe and will never subscribe to such childrearing ideas, believing instead that until children can take care of their own needs they live under their parents rules and parents control, end of story.)  I literally used NONE of the materials that were recommended -- because all were in a "voice" that did not have any traction and indeed caused folks to raise their eyebrows.  But what did work is what Ihlin highlighted, for reasons that she highlighted.  

          •  Okay, so are you saying the issue with (0+ / 0-)

            the black community focuses on the "common good" i.e. "community wholeness" ideal and not the "individualism" of Emerson or Thoreau?

            While ihlin phrases a fairly renown statement:

            ...my body was a gift created by God and not to be abused or trashed and that i must exercise responsibility with it

            Do you not believe that the issue of a woman's healthcare is about being responsible for that gift?  After all, the Bible says nothing about abortion being forbidden, therefore the medical decisions about a woman's childbearing and its attendant implications on her health are issues of not abusing a body and exercising responsibility for same.

            Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

            by bronte17 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:13:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I Don't Want to Argue (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ConspiracyJack

              Because the issue is not my personal belief, at least not in this diary.  Nor is it Emerson or Thoreau:  I think I'd be on pretty solid ground by saying that most Black folks could give a flying you know what about either, assuming that they even remember learning about them in high school.  Individualism does have pretty low traction in the traditional black communities, yes - and folks who are "it's all about me" when it comes to their decisionmaking are considered to be.....at least in old school language....spoiled brats.  

              Or, candidly, acting white.

              It's hard for me to dialogue when you're speaking a language that assumes many things away.  When you say "Do you not believe that the issue of a woman's healthcare is about being responsible for that gift" in response to Ihlin, for example, here are all the things you are assuming away:

              a)  That abortion implicates only or even primarily the issue of health care - a situation we know is not the case.  

              b)  That abortion is health care of the "temple" (the literal body) - when there is no evidence that for the vast majority of women there is any positive physical benefit to abortion -- as opposed to what is a psychic benefit that may, or may not, be spiritually important.

              c)  That the absence of a prohibition against abortion using the word abortion means that in religious tradition there is no prohibition -- this conveniently overlooks both the prohibition against murder in the Bible and the religious belief that the human soul begins at conception.

              I recognize and support the right of women of all stripes to believe what they are going to believe, either way.  But truthfully the divide between whites and blacks in terms of how things like abortion are viewed won't change unless and until non-religious folks (or folks who believe that somehow abortion is "religion neutral") understand that even for those who tolerate the legality of it, who would not champion laws against it, it is a moral wrong, that most of the time is in furtherance of a previous moral wrong (promiscuity/fornication/whatever you want to call it.) And that the political "value added" of trying to tell people they are wrong about their moral views is.....zero, such that it is better to just let folks think what they are going to think and focus more on how one can come up with mutually agreeable compromise solutions.

              •  My comment wasn't meant as an argument (0+ / 0-)

                It was an honest effort to ask a question in my first statement. I meant no offense with the question. It was sincere.

                The other was an inquiry into healthcare for women since pregnancy overshadows a majority of their lifetime.

                In answer to your alphabetical list:
                a) Yes, the entire gamut of pregnancy is a health issue, abortion is a component of that. Women develop complications and lifelong afflictions from pregnancy. Women die from child birth. Women, or young women, have serious consequences for their lifetime from childbirth. Pregnancy is a medical condition and abortion as an extension of pregnancy deserves no less treatment in a medical capacity. Not in backrooms and alley ways.

                b) You say there is no evidence for the positive physical benefit of abortion. I would have to disagree. After the third child, a woman's body begins to break down, the uterine wall, her bladder and colon and health. And, you have separated psychological well-being from physical well-being as if the two were mutually exclusive.

                As far as the "religious belief" that the human soul begins at conception, that is not a universal belief.

                Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                by bronte17 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 05:46:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  When does personhood begin? (0+ / 0-)

                c)  That the absence of a prohibition against abortion using the word abortion means that in religious tradition there is no prohibition -- this conveniently overlooks both the prohibition against murder in the Bible and the religious belief that the human soul begins at conception.

                I recognize and support the right of women of all stripes to believe what they are going to believe, either way.  But truthfully the divide between whites and blacks in terms of how things like abortion are viewed won't change unless and until non-religious folks (or folks who believe that somehow abortion is "religion neutral") understand that even for those who tolerate the legality of it, who would not champion laws against it, it is a moral wrong, that most of the time is in furtherance of a previous moral wrong (promiscuity/fornication/whatever you want to call it.) And that the political "value added" of trying to tell people they are wrong about their moral views is.....zero, such that it is better to just let folks think what they are going to think and focus more on how one can come up with mutually agreeable compromise solutions.

                There is a sound philosophical belief that personhood begins at birth. In a country founded on the concept of "governments...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," shouldn't it be up to those who believe personhood begins at conception to prove the opposing belief to be wrong?

                There was some promotion of the "genetic theory of individuality" some two decades ago, but that was a minority voice even within the antiabortion community, and they didn't directly address the "birthist" point of view. The use of the term "partial birth abortion" actually comes closer; it agitates birthists, telling them "You ought to oppose this procedure too."

                In addition, there is a religious belief that the souls of animals are equal to human souls. Should we understand that even for those who "tolerate the legality of" meat-eating, "who would not champion laws against" meat-eating, "it is a moral wrong?"

                I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

                by Judge Moonbox on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:05:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Yes and No (4+ / 0-)

      But is this true of the black churches too? I think I hear you saying that it's not; that even those in that movement who oppose abortion and gay marriage rights have been able to put that aside for a larger political cause, they're just upset about continuing marginalization across the board. And despite my own deep misgivings about religion, I've never been unwilling to work with such folks.

      I think that's a fair summary of what I am saying, yes. Certainly, opposition to both abortion and gay rights has not prevented nearly 90% of Black folks from voting Democrat, despite what many will tell you quite plainly is their personal opposition to both of those things.  Indeed, the political issues surrounding either are things that really didn't even get much discussion in Black churches until very recently (i.e. the last few years, when the almighty federal dollar started coopting some Black ministers -- just goes to show you that money will always cause some folks to lose their everloving minds).  For example, Black homophobia, while always there, was more of a "out of sight, out of mind" phenomena despite the utter hypocrisy of such a stance when everyone knows (at least, when I was growing up in an all-Black neighborhood everyone knew) who was gay and yet those people led largely unmolested lives.  The shunning phenomena did not exist in the church (indeed, we might have had some real problems if it had, given how many choir directors are gay.)  Similarly, abortion was not discussed in the church.  It was discussed in individual homes and individual lives - and usually when it was, it was "you don't need to do this you have family".  Folks just accepted that babies come with the territory, however immoral the underlying cause of the babies was seen to be in certain circumstances.

      I think what you're asking is, at root, "what is the price of admission? what must people give up to enter into coalition? and what does it mean if whites are telling blacks they have to give up their opposition to abortion rights?"

      I think you have it backwards.  The point of my diary is simple:  Democrats cannot win national elections without the Black vote, unless they are going to affirmatively return to the pre-civil rights, anti-Black stance of the party.  That has been a historical truth for the last 40 years or so.  Thus, it is not about what Blacks have to do to be "admitted", it is about what whites need to accept if they still want Black votes.  In other words, the power to decide simply does not rest where your comment implies that it does.  Thus, in terms of talking about entering into coalition, the quesiton is not what Black folks might "have to give up" but what white folks might "have to give up."  At least, it's a question in theory.  Because in those 40 years I have never seen Black folks in political convention actually demand that the party accomodate either the anti-gay or anti-abortion beliefs held by many loyal Black Democrats. Most that I know simply don't think in those terms.  

      On the other hand, they don't want to be insulted for not agreeing, either, as the price of not insisting that their view take precedence, as the group that actually makes the electoral difference for the party time and time again.  That's more of what my diary is about.

  •  I lack the cultural background to agree or (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hells kitchen

    disagree, but this is an excellent diary in its choice and scope.  Recommended.

  •  Thank you very much (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cookiebear, hells kitchen

    For taking the time to write this detailed, insightful commentary.

    I can't add anything except to note that I am extraordinarily impressed with the way that Barack Obama appears to understand the role of religion in American public discourse.

    I was very impressed with his visit to Rick Warren's megachurch here in the OC, and his extraordinary ability to mix faith into his conversations in the way that our founding fathers envisioned.

    Could I have your insights on that, shanikka?

    •  in the way our founding fathers (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bronte17

      envisioned?  I would really appreciate it if you'd elaborate on what exactly you mean.

      In order to hide their embezzlement behind a posse of demented hicks, Republicans' slogans must be short and superstitious. Grand Moff Texan

      by station wagon on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:17:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can expand at length (5+ / 0-)

        But I'll rely on Reverend Shute, from the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention, in discussing the idea of a religious test for public office, one of the debates about the separation of church and state that the religionists lost over and over again, state by state.

        Nor is there to me, any conceivable advantage, sir, that would result to the whole from such a test. Unprincipled and dishonest men will not hesitate to subscribe to any thing that may open the way for their advancement, and put them into a situation the better to execute their base and iniquitous designs. Honest men alone, therefore, however well qualified to serve the public, would be excluded by it, and their country be deprived of the benefit of their abilities. In this great and extensive empire, there is, and will be, a great variety of' sentiments in religion among its inhabitants. Upon the plan of a religious test, the question, I think, must be, Who shall be excluded from national trusts? Whatever answer bigotry may suggest, the dictates of candor and equity, I conceive, will be, None.

        Far from limiting my charity and confidence to men of my own-denomination in religion, I suppose, and I believe, sir, that there are worthy characters among men of every denomination -- among the Quakers, the Baptists, the Church of England, the Papists; and even among those who have no other guide, in the way to virtue and heaven, than the dictates of natural religion.

        I must therefore think, sir, that the proposed plan of government, in this particular, is wisely constructed; that, as all have an equal claim to the blessings of the government under which they live, and which they support, so none should be excluded from them for being of any particular denomination in religion.

        Obama speaks of his faith, but certainly would exclude any one else's claim to the blessing of the government.

    •  I Think (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Heiuan

      That Barack Obama's pretty normal.  There's nothing unique about how he talks about religion, as Black folks or even Black politicians go.  The only difference that I perceive is that he is more on white people's radar than any other Black politician since Jesse Jackson (who many whites recoil from not for primarily religious reasons but because he sounds "too Black" with his cadence -- makes sense, since he's a preacher.)

  •  meaty diary (13+ / 0-)

    a lot to digest

    but this:

    Many lifelong Black churchgoers abhor abortion rights, for example -- indeed, the majority of African-Americans believe that abortion should be illegal in most if not all circumstances, even as Black folks disproportionately access the abortion right.  They have reached a quiet consensus that it is a necessary evil.  Acceptance of Premarital sex, particuarly amongst minors? They may accept the reality of it -- and indeed, when the babies come, as they often do, they embrace them and the mother, for religious reasons, but you'd be hard pressed to find any Black "conservative evangelical churches" that don't regularly make the immorality of it a topic for Sunday service Gay marriage? Nope.  Patriarchy? You just don't want to know.  You don't get much more "conservative" or "evangelical" than most Black churches -  Especially in the South.

    ... may be the meatiest bit of all. and it holds true for American Indians, as well.

    i gave up a long time ago trying to convey that many of the beliefs held on dKos are not shared by significant numbers of the American population --- yet these numbers represent people and groups who should be our natural allies.

    i've also despaired of trying to get across that "evangelical," as i know it, is sublimely progressive, as it encompasses community action and social activism.

    i see it every day - i live in the Cherokee Nation, i teach at a college with significant minority population, including both American Indian and African-American - i have one class in which only one student is not either American Indian, African-American or both - i have cousins who are Cherokee Pentecostals, most of my neighbors are Missionary Baptists --- the list goes on and on.

    and my experience is that a significant number of these people are living social activism.

    one student alone, African-American, has been a foster parent to over 20 kids, and has adopted 10 of them, because the kids needed families.

    that's extraordinary. that progressivism in action. that's the real thing. that's putting your own life and your own beliefs on the line, and just doing what needs to be done for the betterment of the community and the country.

    but i've given up, i'll admit, on trying to get that across on dKos. too many people would rather slam any religion or religious person, and it just isn't worth it to me anymore to point out the contradictions i see between hiding behind a computer screen to heap scorn on huge numbers of people in this country and the actions in real life of the very people upon whom scorn is heaped.

    thanks for posting this.

    James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

    by cookiebear on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:04:46 AM PDT

    •  I Agree With You (3+ / 0-)

      "Active faith-based progressivism" is something that I think too few people are familiar with outside communities of color.  It's a shame, and hopefully folks will spend more time in those communities so that they can see the upside.

      I had a discussion recently with someone who was ranting about the hypocrisy of the Right where abortion was concerned and used what is now a standard retort: "Soon as folks who are against abortion step up to take care of the babies they can say something."

      So I asked this person whether they were aware of precisely how many families of color -- grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, you name it -- were rearing children born in their families who were not their biological children.  In informal guardianships.  With no rights, and no angst.  And who were also against abortion.  This person was not aware of the prevalance of this in these communities - they just assumed that the hypocrisy of the majority of wingnuts was shared by everyone.

      I too sometimes feel it's not worth the effort to correct people's errors about these things.  Then I just keep trying.  Because we all need each other, right about now.

  •  what atheists want (5+ / 2-)

    is for religious people to shut the fuck up

    i believe, that atheists, by and large are intrinsically quite tolerant -- however ... since religious people can NOT stop talking about there beliefs (and trying to impose their beliefs on all of us) -- we are sick and fucking tired of hearing about it

    You want Your religion, fine -- shut the fuck up and keep it to Yourself; however, if You insist on talking about it -- don't expect us to just sit back and stay silent ... simply out of some sense of 'respect' -- personally, i don't respect Your religion -- it makes no fucking sense to me -- but, it would all be well and fine if You would just keep it to Yourself ... since You insist on NOT, well ... don't insist that i stay silent either ...

    •  Rude nonsense (8+ / 0-)

      That may be what an atheist named josephk wants, but I can't say that he speaks for me or the atheists in my family. I am perfectly comfortable with others' faiths or lack thereof. All I ask is that they accept the precepts of our Constitution, and not try to demand that their beliefs somehow become a state religion.

      •  So (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        macdust, sean mykael, ormondotvos

        You haven't observed ANY move in this country towards a Theocratic centered gov't?

        moreover, You have not observed ANY evidence that there is a preponderance of Religiously driven violence in our world presently?

        further, You have observed NO evidence that Religious driven motives have undermined any series of issues such as Choice, Stem Cell Research, Evolution, Global Climate ...?

        i mean ... are You and i living in the same country, much less the same world -- whereby "people of faith" are keeping it to themselves?

        •  i don't think you'll find a whole lot (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          josephk

          of disagreement..

          but i think the tone of your original comment left a bad taste in my mouth..

          Don't fight it son. Confess quickly! If you hold out too long you could jeopardize your credit rating. --Brazil (1985)

          by hypersphere01 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 12:00:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Making My Point for Me (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sean mykael, ormondotvos

            ... i just had to pop out to the store and the Post office ... and what do i see ... There, half hanging over into the Disabled Parking Spot (and the person had No disability -- i saw them) without a Disabled sticker was a Gas Guzzling (some might say a war promoting), Escalade ... and what was the License plate ... _ _ GOD4U

            Really!?!?

            i am so sick and tired of it -- it makes me want to tear my eyes out

            Please, i am begging all religionists -- keep it to Yourself; i don't doubt for a second that there are fine and decent religionists; but, please, i am begging You -- stop talking about it -- it isn't helping!!

            how am i to express this sentiment in a 'tone' that does Not leave a bad taste in Your mouth!? ... seriously!?

            •  but isn't it like banging your head on a wall? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              bronte17, josephk

              been there..  done that.

              tolerance and acceptance works both ways. the scale is tipped right now, but have patience.

              Don't fight it son. Confess quickly! If you hold out too long you could jeopardize your credit rating. --Brazil (1985)

              by hypersphere01 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:35:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Too bad... (0+ / 0-)

              The first amendment allows people who express their religious beliefs.  As are you allowed to express your yourself as an atheist.  If you don't like it, too damn bad.

              I'm running for office! Click here to support me!

              by djtyg on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:03:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Precisely *How* (0+ / 0-)

              Does seeing the license plate harm you?

              Answer:  it doesn't.  It's not like someone poured acid on your skin, or threw a rock at you, or even walked up to you and insulted you.  It just is.  Much the way that the "Yield to Pedestrians" sign is.  If you truly are at a place of peace about your own non-belief.

              So why is something like that even problematic for you? I'm genuinely trying to understand.  It seems as if you are injecting some personalized anti-you symbolism into it that simply does not exist for most religious people.

    •  Not a troll comment, but perhaps could have been (0+ / 0-)

      been stated more gracefully.

      Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

      by bronte17 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:57:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I Have (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ConspiracyJack, Rusty Pipes

      Two children who are agnostic/atheist.  Despite being raised by a religious mother.

      And neither thinks as you do.  They were raised right.  They know that people talking about their religion does not do any harm to anyone in and of itself.  Any more than conversations about football.  Thus, polite listeners just nod and smile.

      You might try that, since Lord knows when I read overbroad, angry things like "atheists want religious people to STFU" when I know too many atheists who don't care one way or the other, that's what I do. =)

  •  I always (4+ / 0-)

    like to read Frederick Clarkson's diaries here on separation of church and state, religious freedom, and the religious supremacist right.  He has written that it is his personal policy to troll rate anyone who disparages religion as a religious bigot.  I agree with him.  That type of comment, as far as I've seen, is pretty doggone rare, thankfully.

    But then you have diaries, thankfully also rare, like this one, titled, "Religious Education is Child Abuse w/Poll.  The diarist sprinkles anti-religion comments freely in other folks' diaries, as well as writing diaries like this.  My trolldar siren goes off everytime I see a post like this. I shake my head when they're given positive mojo.  But the overwhelming response is to shut up, bigot.

    In another vein, I happened to be flipping through the channels during the nightly network news half hour a week or two ago, when ABC was doing what I thought was a lukewarm hit piece on Barack Obama when the narrator of the piece said that there are concerns that Obama belongs to a "black power church" in Chicago.  What the freakin' hell?  Are we supposed to be afraid?

    In order to hide their embezzlement behind a posse of demented hicks, Republicans' slogans must be short and superstitious. Grand Moff Texan

    by station wagon on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:15:44 AM PDT

    •  Barack Obama (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ormondotvos

      First off -- i really like what Obama has shown -- from watching his DNC04 keynote speech through to the present ... i am far closer to being an Obama supporter rather than an Obama 'hater'

      secondly -- i was once a member of the UCC -- confirmed and all; and despite that i no longer possess it -- that is where i had developed my long lived religious tolerance (which has been subsequently crushed by the perverse religious actions on Sept 11, 2001 and through to the present by the US's own gov't)

      while i didn't see the ABC 'hit piece' -- i absolutely refuse to watch as long as Mark Halperin remains political chief, so, i don't doubt for a second that it was a 'hit piece' -- i am not sure that calling Trinity United Church of Chicago a 'black power church' would really be inaccurate ... if You visit it, it does appear to be just that!? -- i have no problems with that BUT i do have a problem that it is NOT an ONA church, of which there are at least 10 UCC ONA churches in the chicago area.

      Lastly -- Yes, i am an anti-religious bigot: i honestly wasn't always this way; but i have observed so much needless death and destruction and diminution of simple human decency over the past few years PURELY out of religious motivations -- i honestly am tired of it -- i wish, more than anything, to be able to go back to the way i was a few years ago -- 'live and let live' ... but, i can't, or more honestly, i won't.

      that You should want to condemn those that are 'mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore' and insist on troll rating/silencing them ... is absurd ... i would never dream of going off on someone that is evangelical and troll rating them for ranting against 'godless atheists' ... just because You don't like what i say, doesn't mean i am a troll ... but, use Your TU anyway You like i guess ... it is Your TU status!

      •  Well written (4+ / 0-)

        While I too have my days when the only comments that seem to be appropriate include a very heavy sprinkling of epithets, I find it better to take a long view and realize that this battle between our Constitution and the religionists has been going back and forth for centuries, and that we are just at one of our nadirs now, after one of our major parties was hijacked by theocons.

      •  Fortunately, the TU algorithm is not (0+ / 0-)

        interested in religion.

      •  Can I Ask (5+ / 0-)

        Exactly what bugs anyone about the idea of a "black power church?"

        Seems to me a harkening back to white fears about "Black Power" - a terror that somehow, if Blacks get it together they will wreak on whites the same hatred and harm that whites have wreaked on us for hundreds of years.

        There's of course no evidence of this, and overwhelming evidence that most African-Americans are harkening for sainthood where "forgiveness" over as yet uncured systemic institutionalized anti-Black racism in America is concerned.

        All it takes is reading the actual church's mission statement to know that it is about hating nobody. It is about dedicating efforts to the salvation and improvement of Black folks.  Why white folks take that to mean something negative is beyond me - after all, they're the ones always complaining that we don't take "personal responsibility" for our own people.

    •  I state my reasons for my opinions. (0+ / 0-)

      There's a groundswell of opinion worldwide that much of our world's sad state can be laid at the feet of religious bigotry.

      Automatic troll rating is against the site rules.

      But live your morality as you wish. It's just a blog.

    •  That "Religious Education is Child Abuse" (3+ / 0-)

      Diary caused steam to come out of my ears.  I spoke my piece in it, but it was indeed an example of what I am talking about:  folks who have their own personal beef with religion who can't get over it to a place of peace with their own non-belief, such that they have to insult and demonize other people who are not in the same hating place they are in.

      And you state it plain when you use the word "afraid" in connection with all this sturm & drang over the fact that Barack Obama belongs to a "Black power church" (whatever on God's earth that is.)

  •  Great diary and recommended (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cassandra m, ormondotvos, righteousbabe, I

    Because the white right-wing religious groups have hijacked the morality conversation, it has obscured the breadth of religious thinking that exists.  And in that breadth of religious thinking I am including believer or non-believer alike, because in my experience when someone self-identifies as an atheist or agnostic, the label emerges from a discussion of belief.

    As a white person, it strikes me that how the black people of our country were introduced to Christianity and how they interacted with it in their original circumstances (slavery) is very different from the way people of European extraction were introduced to it (often inherited).

    Christianity has been handed down with both repressive and progressive approaches, often in conflict with one another.  In the broad area between the two poles are many who practice by habit and whose faith is often naive.

    As a modern white Christian, I acknowledge the role both of culture and belief in my commitment to my faith.  I could not be a Christian by culture alone and the formal mythology about Christ that has developed over centuries was not satisfying to me at all.

    I'm probably a heretic for saying that the work of John Dominic Crossan has been invaluable in saving my faith.  Crossan is a biblical scholar who has written a series of books that views Jesus through the prism of modern scholarship.  This encompasses not only an analysis of Jesus and his life's work, but the society which gave rise to Jesus and how he related to it.

    The first book I read was a trade book called Excavatng Jesus by Crossan and an archeologist (whose name escapes me).  The book was so fascinating I decided to read Crossan's Historical Jesus and Birth of Christianity.  The latter books are not easy reads if you're not a biblical scholar (I'm not), but they're worthwhile to comprehend a Jesus - not sitting on a cloud in the sky - working to bring a trodden people respite from oppression and bringing to them the promise of the Kingdom of Heaven, not in some long awaited future, but in the here and now by uniting people in care for one another.

    As I read these books, I thought two things:  I thought of the power of the black church and how, taking up this faith in slavery, they truly understood the message of Jesus.  The second idea that came to me, especially after reading Birth of Christianity, how appropriate the story of Jesus and the Jewish people were to what is going on today.  Crossan presents a picture of a society being marginalized by the Romans who are changing the economy of Israel and Galilee from rural agrarian to commercial agriculture and the resultant social and economic marginalization of the Jewish commoner.

    Sound familiar?  

    I'm not saying that everyone should become Christian.  I don't believe that (heretic me). But I am saying that whether we are Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, we have to get over the religious right's stranglehold over this discussion, and we stop dividing ourselves over this.  We're all smarter than that.

    Edwards Democrat

    My moniker is in honor of three generations of women whose soul's were seared in the cauldron of Hell's Kitchen, NYC

    by hells kitchen on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:48:37 AM PDT

  •  voting for satan (5+ / 0-)

    some of the conservative evangelicals in my family would equate voting for a democrat with voting for satan.

    they will come right out and tell you that democrats are anti-religion, and that it's in the democratic platform.  

    Willis isn't making that up.  It's true, and he's got it right.  People do in fact make that claim.  It's why some gas stations in rural south GA still have life-size cardboard cutouts of dubya surrounded by books for sale about his faith in Christ.  He is the warrior for their cause, and has very carefully been placed in that role.  Epicopalians and other religious liberals like myself are seen by some of those folks as heathen.

  •  What to say? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ormondotvos

    Shanikka, I have told you before that I really enjoy reading your stuff.  It is full of the intellectual depth and integrity that I wish more diarists had.. Whats more, I think you bring a unique viewpoint to the table.

    My thoughts on your diary is as follows.

    I understand the point you were making about the success of the Black church in Democratic politics.  However, success in the past does not equal success in the future.  As the country, and the world, we live in changes around us, don't old forumals have to give way to new ones?

    As for your point about the anti-religious rhetoric seen around here, I have to agree with you.  I think a lot of people are condescending toward the religious.  At the same time, they are condescneding toward people who don't think George Bush is as bad as Hitler.  They are condescending to people who like Hillary Clinton.  They are condescending to people who think now that it is all over, Joe Lieberman should be welcomed back to the party.  but at the end of the day, I have to think they are a minority, and they are a minority that won't come to power.

    As opposed to listening to those that piss us off, if we listen, we can find those who are willing to talk with us.  I am a white Jew.  I can sit in my room and rant about the horrors of Farrakhan or I can look for the community groups that are building black-jewish relations from the ground up.  Of course I come from the world view that a major part of the Republican strategy is to pit Jews and Blacks against each other because they recognize that if we are aligned with each other we would have tremendous voting power.

    Finally, there is always going to be some discomfort between religion and politics.  There are fine lines everyone, starting with the first amendment.  I have deep respect for religious people, and will fight emphatically for the rights to practice religion.  At the same time, I am a strict seperationist.  I believe that government and religion must be kept absolutely separate from government for the sake of both the government and the institution of religion.  These competing goals, especially when religion and religious groups are so prominent in our politics, makes it very difficult to find the acceptable balance.

  •  Outstanding diary. (0+ / 0-)

         
    I agree with this, in particular:

    The real skill will come in the left again learning how to discern the differences, and to work with religion as a tool for progressive political change, not merely against it as a coopted tool (Coopted by folks who wouldn't know God if he showed up on their lawns with business cards) of progressive political harm.

  •  Great diary! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes

    I think what people like Wallis have confused is the difference between bigoted jackasses at the bottom of the grassroots barrel, and an actual organized effort to undermine religion.

    While there isn't an organized effort on the part of liberals, the bigots that get support don't do a lot of good in dispelling the myth that liberals hate religious people.

    I'm running for office! Click here to support me!

    by djtyg on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:10:30 AM PDT

  •  good stuff as always sistah (3+ / 0-)

    i always feel quite marginalized as a minority evangelical here and trying to shout out about the ways in which parts of the Democratic base (latinos, blacks) are at fundamental cultural odds with the white secular base. i tried to diary about it once, but that didn't go anywhere.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...
    some of the relevant exerpts:

    Folks seem to snicker at the thought of anyone saying the Bible should take precedence over the will of the people. never mind that a majority of Democrats's most loyal base, african Americans, shares the same view.

    according to the pew poll, Whites overwhelmingly say the people's will should be more influential (65% to 30%), while blacks are almost evenly divided (50% say the Bible, 48% the will of the people). when you realize that for most of this country's history, the "will of the people" endorsed slavery and segregation, you realize why african americans would look to God's law for salvation above "man-made" earthly laws. like i said, this is fundamental divide i see over and over w/in the Democrats coalition, with the white secular liberals being totally ignorant of how this fact of life for people of color influences their values and politics.

    Also check out the percentages of which group heard the most sermons on homosexuality in their churches. it was black protestants. nothing surprising to any of us who know these communities, but something the white secular "netroots", who fancies themselves as the "true" representatives of the Dem party, should be aware of.

    Large majorities of Republicans (87%), independents (65%) and Democrats (60%) decry efforts by liberals to limit religious influence in the public sphere, including 70% of conservative and moderate Democrats. But just 38% of liberal Democrats express this view. So liberal (i.e. Secular white Dems) should know they are out of step with the American public on these issues.

    ----------------------------

    the ways in which the minority communities talk about public policy issues is quite different too. god is everywhere, god and the Bible are the ultimate authority, not the Constitution. I was reminded of this watching Tavis Smiley's state of the black union the other week...

    but how you get secular whites to understand the viewpoint of the Dems most loyal voters is beyond me. the ignorance is just too vast, and most don't even bother to read black media or news.

    •  Perhaps a difference across races? (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ihlin, Psyche, ConspiracyJack

      The black church consoled African-Americans during slavery, was the only large institution that gave them dignity during Jim Crow and organized the Civil Rights movement.  It is justly celebrated as a liberating and empowering church.

      As you know, most people on dKos are white.  We do not share the experience of a Christian Church that has an unambiguous history of supporting human rights.  Along with the heroic role played by the Roman Catholic Church in immigrant neighborhoods, the Abolitionists and the clergy who campaigned for human rights is a less benign history.  The descendants of Hungarian Christians and German Jews ravaged by the First Crusade, the Frisians exterminated in the 1200s, the Albigensians, French Huguenots and German peasants in Luther's Germany certainly do not have that history.  The Pilgrims came here because they were persecuted, and the Irish tell stories of a bigoted Anglican Church exerting only a baleful influence as 25% of the nation perished of famine.  We were urged to tolerate slavery because it would Christianize Africans.  Christian-on-Christian wars stain European history.  Our churches are the ones excoriated in Dr. King's "Letter from Birmingham Jail".  Worse, Jews in Germany saw most of the Lutheran Church there grovel at the Reich's feet.  And, at every step that our ancestors brutalized others, members of the clergy applauded and urged us on.  

      This does not excuse the ignorant rantings of the anti-theists who wish that Christians would shut up.  If you give me lots of mojo and I get TU back, I promise to troll-rate the most obnoxious.  But it's only fair that the not-undiluted love of non-blacks for the Church be explained.  

      Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

      by Yamaneko2 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 05:29:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you... (0+ / 0-)

        for a thoughtful, reasoned response. The rhetoric here (on both sides) is often overheated and driven by emotion rather than reason. There certainly are differences in history (remote and more recent) that contribute to differences in the perception of their churches by various ethnic groups. There are also compelling reasons for all groups to re-examine their history, how they came to hold their beliefs and whether or not these beliefs stand up in the light of reason in the 21st century. For the black church, two such areas are reproductive education, care, and rights and equal rights for LGBT's. Are their beliefs in these areas consistent with the strong social gospel they profess - or indeed with the goals of MLK - or, as remnants of history, do they bring pain and suffering to many of their people today?

        The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell

        by Psyche on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:41:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Shannika girlfriend-where is your tip jar? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ihlin, concernedamerican

      Your diary is bumpin'. Says so clearly so many things I have felt as a black christian progressive here. Thank you.

    •  Have you really thought this through? (0+ / 0-)

      "... the Bible should take precedence over the will of the people." Whose bible (or other holy book) and whose religion should take precedence over the will of the people? It's important to note that, in our history, there were times that the bible was used to support the continuation of slavery. The accepted "bible" its interpretation, and the brand of religion in favor at a given time tend to be those of the people/political party in power. That is why the founding fathers, in their wisdom and with a bloody, religion-driven European history behind them elected not to establish a state church but to provide for a government in which church and state stay out of each other's business. I think your interpretation of the statistics is skewed to support you own beliefs which appear extreme. Just think seriously for a moment of a country where the Constitution has been shredded (as this administration has tried to do) and everyone does his/her thing on the basis of private religious beliefs. Anarchy? Who protects the rights of minorities?

      The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell

      by Psyche on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 08:00:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You Have to Distinguish (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ConspiracyJack

        Between personal beliefs held by folks and what they are trying to see implemented collectively.  Therein lies much of the difficulty:  folks are assuming that such a belief necessarily means that folks want to see that become law of the land.  That may be true for wingnuts, but IME most African-Americans who are Christian don't care despite their personal belief in the primary of the Bible as law governing their personal lives and, indeed, have lots of good reasons to generally be suspicious of government trying to implement too much of anything outside a social safety net.

        I am troubled when you ask whether Ihlin (and by extension everyone else) has "really thought this through" - obviously she has, and has come to her beliefs.  It implies that such a belief comes from lack of thinking and reason - even if you didn't mean it to sound so.  The very thing I was talking about in my diary.

  •  having been on all sides of this fence (0+ / 0-)


    I've come to the opinion that, yes, there is plenty of bad behavior by anti-religious people, but that the greater fault is on the religious side.  It really shouldn't be as thin-skinned and in denial of its faults as it usually is.  When confronted, it rarely follows its own precepts and undergoes humble self-examination.

    In this matter, both sides could focus on our common interests or choose to focus on our differences.  The choice to focus on our differences is what we all notice and regret.

    How do we get to the point of not emphasizing our differences as much and focussing on our common interests?  I doubt all the claims of deserving respect can do it.  Thought of course we should be fair and give each person a due measure of dignity in our eyes.

    What I believe is lacking is the commensurate humility and some level of admission of fault of one's own side.  "We admit we do not know, and we are unable to trust what you call signs."  "My community is not prepared to agree with you on this issue but the intensity of our view is probably overstated, and it will be reconsidered in the future.  It is a painful subject and I prefer not to raise it between us."

    Renewal. Not mere reforms. We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.

    by killjoy on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:58:27 AM PDT

  •  This is truly excellent (0+ / 0-)

    I can only stand and applaud.  Peace and blessings to you, Shanikka!

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by DWG on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:13:03 AM PDT

  •  Lost all credibility when.... (0+ / 0-)

    ....you cited to a survey conducted by a covert conservative group-BAMPAC. These folks supported Ken Blackwell in Ohio, for God's sake!

    And the article you linked to was written by a writer for the Washington Times.

    Give me a break.

    Come back with something real, something more than a bottle of hot air and self-righteous indignation, and maybe I'll listen. Right now, you've lost serious cred   with me.

    •  "I Lost All Credibility" (0+ / 0-)

      Umm....OK?  I'm crushed.  Honest.

      I'm not sure how to respond to that other than this:  You can and should go do your own search on Black American viewpoints about abortion. I linked to the most convenient article on the web about Black views on abortion.  Lord knows white folks don't study the issue.  They are too busy pretending everyone agrees with them as a default rule (part of that minority invisibility thing.)  On the other hand, you've gone ad hominem with both me and the reporters (who gives a shit who supports who if the data is accurate???!)) rather than link to a single study that refutes it.  That's perhaps because there is not one:  the few times that Black folks specifically were asked about their views, these were the results.  The most recent figures I saw (on Black commentator) had 20% of Black folks against abortion for any and ALL reasons.

      So in light of that, if you want to talk about credibility, you have to demonstrate you have some of your own.  Which is most aptly done by actually refuting the data, rather than just spouting insult.

      •  Fair enough (0+ / 0-)

        I retract the ad hominem part. Please accept my apologies.

        My point is that the sources of the data were not unbiased, but rather that they are biased. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that by relying on sources that are one-sided, you diminished your own credibility.

        I don't have to establish the opposite of your underlying point to show that you relied  on poor-quality sources. And that relying is what tarnished your credibility, for me.

        If you had talked about the connection to BAMPAC and the Washington Times, youre credibility would have been as strong as ever. But then your diary wouldn't have had as much impact....

        Thanks for responding; I appreciate the dialogue

  •  Two kinds of morality (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ConspiracyJack

    Too much work, too much travel, so little time to blog.  But I wanted to be sure to highlight yesterday's post by Oliver Willis on the intersection between the Black Church and Democratic Politics from yesterday:  The Old Hotness.
    The money quote from it, to me, is this one:

    Who is the American leader, in all of our history, who was most impactful at conjoining his religious beliefs and political action? It's not Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or any of the agents of intolerance on the right. It's Martin Luther King. That is, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. of the Ebenezer Baptist Church. I often imagine King and other leaders before and since in the black church (yes, including Sharpton and Jackson) saying "I've got your religious left right here".

    There are two different kinds of morality: ethical and dogmatic. Ethics is debatable; you can see how it's drawn from some basic precepts, and those who accept the precepts can follow how the person's values dictate a stand. Dogma is based on revelation; you can take it on faith or when push comes to shove you can reject it as blasphemy. Once, I've criticized my own minister for some testimony that I thought promoted a dogmatic point of view.

    Martin Luther King voiced an ethical morality; it's hard to argue against his view unless you reject the precept of Human Equality. I've listened to Taylor Branch at a book fair last year, he said that for all King's God-talk, he was never denominational in his public addresses.

    The black churches of America aren't as fashionable and sexy perhaps as these other new organizations, but they've been there, they've done the homework, and they've produced tangible results we see every day in our lives as Americans. If they die out or fade away as a political force, the Democratic party and liberalism is doomed. Ignoring them and what they've done is a travesty.

    Oliver is certainly correct in asserting what I think he is saying:  the pre-existing, highly successful model, of the religious political left (for want of a better term) is Black people, and the Black church.  And yet, when it comes to the new dialogue of reaching out to liberal and progressive people of faith, people are creating new models instead of embracing and following the lead of the one that both already exists and has delivered electoral success to the Democratic Party over and over and over again.

    As a Unitarian Universalist, I think our model of Religious Leftism has done a lot of good. Promoting the church of Waldo Emerson and Theodore Parker; James Reeb and Viola Liuzzo, is hardly new.

    The strawman is the idea that anyone has ever accused folks on the left of "persecuting" the religious.  I follow religious discussions pretty closely on most of the left-wing sites, and nobody has ever made that accusation.  Thus, Oliver's dismissal of the accusation is dismissing a phantom that he and others who are uncomfortable with confronting the problem of folks hating on religious folks on left-wing sites head-on simply made up.  Nobody is claiming any movement, or any organized effort, to "persecute the religious."

    As such claims primarily work on the Conservative psyche, I'd suggest that you look at some right wing sites. As much as I wish, I cannot think that Pat Robertson and William Donohue are nobodies.

    What the complaint is, and always has been, is that too many on the left who despise religion for their own personal reasons -- and I'm using the word despise quite deliberately, because every time this issue comes up I'm accused of capping on atheists and while the group I'm referring to often refers to itself as atheists most atheists were raised right and do not engage in the juvenile behavior that is generating so much complaint on the left from religious people -- have been encouraged, rewarded with mojo on sites that hand it out, and not called to task for insulting the very intelligence and ability to think and reason of those who call themselves religious, even allies on the left.

    As head usher at my church and delegate to my denomination's general assembly, I should have a beef against these secular fundamentalists. While I would not want to marry one, I find them less threatening than those who insist we all adopt their value judgments. The Bible is in more danger from its thumpers than from its bashers.

    I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

    by Judge Moonbox on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:39:28 PM PDT

  •  Shanikka.... (0+ / 0-)

    First of all, thanks for writing a kick-ass diary!!!

    I seldom make it through the entire diary and ALL of the following posts, but this is a keeper.

    For my part, I'm an average, anglo, liberal male who has been raised primarily in the south.

    I'm extremely comfortable with my Gay friends (of either gender) and ALL Women who desire the right to choose.

    However, while I'm neither an atheist or agnostic, I am deeply suspicious of religion and religiosity in general.  

    I come from the Bill Maher school of thought in believing that Religiosity and it's crossover into politics has caused more human suffering than all other "things" combined.  And I do believe their is a GREAT deal of mental illness is connection with extreme religious viewpoints...

    So, it will come as no surprise that I admit (with modest shame) judging quietly, those in our Democratic / Liberal party who loudly and publicly proclaim their religious faith, especially when it becomes apparent that faith may be in direct opposition to some of my highly cherished liberal positions on social issues.

    I'm actually quite shocked that someone of Barrack Obama's charm, wit and political skills has not come into the Faith Society to galvanize minority communities (black and hispanic) into voting GOP based primarily on the very issues you discussed.

    I wonder if Dr, King would not himself, in 2007 be something of a political independent, scolding both parties in equal measure: Dem's for tolerating alleged "Sins" such as Gays and the Right to Choose, Stem Cell research, etc. and Republicans for their own religious intolerance and for turning away from truly Christian Values of doing more for those without and for their willingness to adopt a political philosophy above values helping others.

    The discussion of being more tolerant for you and all those whose strong religious beliefs I find threatening is overdue and should continue, here on dKos.  Perhaps you could create a weekly diary on the topic of "understanding and tolerance for people of faith" and reaching out to those (like Joseph K) whose opinions are still so flammable.

    I'll point out one more thing before I hit the sack...

    In EVERY single poll about voters faith preference in National candidates, atheists and agnostics are either left out completely, or come in dead last!!!

    So, those of us with concerns over religion in politics, and in the public square have GOOD reason to fear those who don't agree with us.  We just happen to be in greater number in this community.

    Again, GREAT diary.  Thanks for the excellent writing and to all others who contributed to the discussion.

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