Daily Kos

I'm Not Going to Make Any Friends

Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:09:08 AM PDT

and will probably lose some as well, over what I am going to say, since the current fashion is that something is wrong with you if you are not up in arms feeling like sexist wrongness has victimized Amanda Marcotte and Melissa McEwen. 

(And it is important to note that IMO this entire thing is about Amanda's writing, and only tangentially about Melissa's writing, based on both what folks are officially whinging about in this dust-up and what I know reading each for years at Pandagon and Shakespeare's Sister.  From my perspective as a reader, these women advocate in different voices even though they are fighting a common cause, so it is actually troubling to me that they are being lumped together by both sides in the discussion of what may well go down in history referred to as the Edwards' Bloggers vs. Catholic League Controversy.  Indeed, there is no common conclusion that one can draw about their respective writings -- not even the ones that led to this mess -- other than both are women and both are feminist.)

Despite the fact that I like friends, I am nonetheless going to put my view out there, and take the risk yet again that my different take on the predominant dogma might actually make some long-term sense now that heads are a bit cooler.  I do so for the same reasons that the Amanda's and Melissa's and many others do:  as a person committed to women, and women's equality, even if I see both theory and method about some key issues quite differently than most of my sisters on the left.  And I expect it to be dismissed, but I'm tired of silencing myself as I have done for months now just out of fear of being dismissed.  It won't be the first time:  I am used to having my different voice as a woman dismissed on the left.  For example, I was told once that I must not be a woman women merely because I pushed back at DailyKOS against the dominant feminist narrative that most women are victimized by unintended pregnancy following the choice to be sexual, so I guess what I am about to say will again reinforce in simple minds that I am anti- feminist.  But at least I will still have bell hooks and other womanists for company......


I genuinely do not understand the argument that these women resigning from their posts -- whether voluntarily as they claim or under pressure as increasing numbers are speculating without a piss-pot worth of actual evidence -- is a reflection of John Edwards caving to anti-feminism or the patriarchy, as has been the rather consistent theme ever since Mr. Cowshit for Brains Donohoe had his say about what he found netsurfing Amanda and Melissa's online writings.  This entire thing appears to me to be nothing more than the same-old, same-old politics.  Politics that could have just as equally nailed men in their employment for having said something that was off-the-cuff to one, intended audience that would one day be heard in another, less self-selected one.  The business of Politics as Usual.


In other words, none of it -- except in the unconscious mind of the original speaker, Mr. Donohue himself, who appears to have made a career of going after women, and the hue and cry that others have raised about it - seems to have anything to do with feminism. 


Hear me out before ranting, at least.


Let's get the easy part out of the way:  William Donohue is a dick.  A sexist dick.  One who uses the veil of his asserted "Catholic League" (all 350K of them, the best evidence of how little energy what he had to say should have received from anyone since worldwide there apparently are nearly 1.1 billion Catholics, more than 65 million of them in the United States alone) to legitimize his neanderthal ways of thinking.  Little ladies, indeed.


Second, I realize that religion and religious thinking is held in extremely low regard in virtually all of the "in-places" to be on the leftist internet.  Particularly when it comes to religious thinking about things like birth control and abortion.  The Catholic Church seems to get more than an average share of that low regard.  Some deserved, but some over the top and reflecting a general resentment of religious teachings that don't leave people feeling completely validated for choosing to self-actualize in directions inconsistent with religious teachings.  That's OK - I've accepted that general disdain and resentment as part of the territory even as I find it rather juvenile.  And intellectually I understand where it comes from, although at times it seems to me to reach levels of histrionics that are a mystery to me since religion is, IMO, historically proven as much a source of societal good as societal evil such that dissing it and its adherents with the overbroad language too often used in leftist political discourse leaves many potential tools for change on the table at a time when those who truly are fighting for a better world for women and everyone else need all we can get.


But what really matters is that, for the purposes of political strategy, the religious-disdain left is deluding itself about its own importance if it does not accept, however difficult, the reality that such views are held by a tiny minority of potential voters. Thus, any leftist political candidate is a fool if he lets that minority of disdain be the deciding factor in how to react to anything.  Anyone who doesn't accept this - whether or not they like it, and I'm not advocating that anyone like it - is simply refusing to see the political landscape for what it really is at present.  No matter how much folks believe it should change (and I am one of those that does believe it.)


In this case, Mr. Numbnuts Donohue used Amanda and Melissa's own words against them, counting on the fact that the overwhelming majority of folks in this country are religious and even if they don't agree with a particular teaching of a particular church -- even if they vehemently disagree with a particular teaching -- also were raised right and learned early on to tread lightly when dissing someone else's religion.  Out of politeness, if nothing else.  It's a politeness that seems deeply resented on the left, as evidenced by the sheer number of dust-ups that devolve into accusations of "delusional" and "irrational" beliefs as if calling someone either of those things just because they are religious is supposed to actually make them true.  But it is a politeness that other than actual crazy people on the right is an unstated expectation in the majority of American people, IME.


And Donohue's gambit using (primarily) Amanda's words worked, up to a point.  Donohue counted on the left's fear of a backlash from millions of religious Americans - including Catholics -- who are not crazy-as-a-bedbug folks like himself but who nonetheless vote to give actual power to his attempted power play.  However, that fear, which I believe is both largely unconscious and underlies a lot of the vitriolic language (intended or inadvertent) used by too-many non-religious bloggers to discuss religious views on issues like birth control, abortion and unborn children, in which morality is implicated for most Americans to the same degree as women's agency/independence/power or control, would not have done it alone.  After all, all fear requires a target, a source of emotion.  And the left wing blogosphere, having happily gone about for years treating itself as an echo-chamber in which folks could in a free-wheeling fashion and say whatever they wanted to without too much real life consequence even as it also jockeyed and positioned for, and ultimately obtained, real power, gave it to them.  It is inarguable that had huge swaths of the leftwing blogosphere NOT had its now-years-long history of bloggers going to the global religious insult well because of their upset over the beliefs of a tiny minority, when nothing being argued required such rhetoric to make them, there would have been no opening for Mr. "I Had to Silence [Mara Vanderslice] Donohue" to have belly-crawled through.  Had that history not been there to find, this entire episode would have been the kerfluffle that it really should have been.


But it was, and folks just have to deal with that.  Hopefully, they will learn from it.  For many reasons, most having to do with the fact that the star lights of the leftwing blogosphere seem to want to be real players at the halls of power in this country.  And only an idiot doesn't know what the rules of the game are, where politics are concerned.


Now, having said that, it is inarguable that Donohue's gambit worked only a little bit.


I believe that it was "only a little" is because, contrary to what others asserted, I believe that John Edwards -- himself an admittedly religious man who I suspect was as taken aback by reading some of the metaphorical things Amanda wrote - analogizing the Holy Spirit to "hot white sticky semen" and the Catholic Church's position on birth control being solely to guarantee itself more "tithing Catholics" as I was when I read them -- did the right thing in letting it be publicly known that he himself did not approve of what they had said, that he took them at their word about their good faith and lack of intent to insult either Catholics or religious people across the board (the subject of the "I didn't mean to" defense in a variety of political contexts is the subject of a very long diary I'll probably never have time to write) and then said the matter was squashed.  These women were still welcome in his campaign, in the roles for which he'd hired them.  And the controversy was Done.  Finished.  Catholic League or no Catholic League.  Sexist pig Donohue or no sexist pig Donohue.


(We will set aside -- but only for now -- the larger question of why John Edwards or anyone is hiring anyone without doing a background check.  There was nothing that Donohue used as a weapon that was non-public; this is not the equivalent of anyone accusing Amanda or Melissa of saying something in a private setting, which would have raised very serious questions for me.  This entire event related to what both women had done as internet journalists.  It really should have come as a surprise to no one that exercise of one's free speech right always runs the risk of a cost in the private marketplace of employment-- and for those truly sheltered people who didn't know that, I hope they have learned that lesson because unless one is self-employed one cannot survive.  Our society has come to a virtual consensus that all employment is at will, meaning in plain English at the immediate whim of one's employer.  Do I think it's morally right? 95% of the time, no, and I don't think it would have been right in this case, either, had either woman been terminated because of what they wrote on their blogs.  But it is nonetheless reality, and a community that claims to be grounded in reality is well advised to either accept this reality or fight to try to change it (the latter being my personal preference, but of seeming disinterest to most on the left, along with most issues affecting working and poor people.)  If we do try and change it, however, a corollary truth is that we have to be prepared for it to change not just for political friends, but political enemies as well.)


To the little bit it did work, I have to ask:  how did it work any differently for Amanda and Melissa than it would have for a man in their position with similarly public views that might not play too well in Peoria, an Armando or a Gottleib, for example? Nobody has explained that, and until that is explained, there is no evidence that gender had anything to do with this other than out of the mouth of the original speaker -- and as I've already discussed, that little man represents absolutely nobody.


How is the public use of Amanda's own words to pressure her to silence herself her any different than the use of Jeff Gannon's rent-a-boy photos to silence him? Is it inherently different because he was raising the perspective of "the enemy" in a way that neither Amanda or Melissa was? If you believe that, then I would argue that this type of thinking inherently leaves us weak and, ultimately, ineffective politically when it comes to communicating with the vast majority of potential voters.  Either people are accountable for what they say or do, or they are not.  But we cannot have it both ways - we cannot use these same types of tools - blog phishing, quoting out of context, and hyperbole about the relationship between words written in passion and real feelings and beliefs -- as a weapon and refuse to let go when speakers come forward and say "I didn't mean it that way" as an excuse only when it furthers our cause.  It doesn't resonate with most people for a simple reason:  it's transparently hypocritical.


Unfortunately, I do think that feminist ideals took a small blow from this episode, but not from the source everyone is blaming.


To me, they took the body blow when Amanda and Melissa did not believe enough in their own right to now put it behind them, and do the important work they were hired to do, after each had done IMO the right thing by apologizing for having inadvertently insulted religious people who did them no harm in their passionate writing.  Neither of these women are shrinking violets.  To the contrary they are champions for their take on feminism and respected if not beloved by many, as evidenced by how many responded to the call when they came under attack.  They are held in extraordinarily high esteem and regard - and rightfully so, even though often times they say things that merely reinforce my sense of a huge perspective divide between how IME most middle- and upper-class white women think about sexism and feminism and resultant priorities, and how IME most Black women think about them.  There is no question that they were qualified to do what they were hired to do and deserved the chance to do it. 


Yet they folded - voluntarily in both Amanda's and Melissa's case.  At least in part because of the perception that they would harm John Edwards' candidacy by remaining.  A perception that they have, I would submit, only because of they are victim to the same patriarchal thinking about what our role is as women professionals that men are:  in particular, the over-developed sense that women are responsible for both managing and stabilizing "communication" and "relationship" even if it comes at the expense of utterly unnecessary personal sacrifice.  That sense that for women, we can never be completely "cleaned" of our inadvertent missteps so it's better not to harm others -- including other women -- by insisting on being judged by the same standards as men in the workplace.  The standards that, for men's professional lives, often let them fuck up, say "mea culpa" and then demand that it truly be put in the past.  We all know the experiences when men have been put under the microscope for saying things in front of one audience that were perceived as injudicious, or even offensive, in front of another.  Have you seen any of them turn tail and run the minute that backlash against their words began? Hell no- they fought for their jobs, they fought for the right to be seen holistically, not just as moments in time which every human being has.  They took their lumps, and even when it was clear that they were not qualified to be dog catcher they had to be run out on a rail for things that dwarf the things Amanda and Melissa had written.  And, at some point, if the professional talent is there, the dialogue shifts from "OMG did you hear what he said/did" to one of "He's paid enough, leave him alone."


That process was shortcircuited when Amanda and Melissa quit.


And that bothers me, because their employer did have their back.  Both women had been publicly affirmed by John Edwards, even if their personal opinions about religion had been publicly rejected, yet they did not use that power to hold the line.  They made the personal, individual, choice, to quit.  (Those who believe that somehow Edwards was wrong to express dismay about what they actually said do exist, but IMO that's only because they themselves see nothing wrong with what was said and lack empathy for why others might not be sanguine about it yet not also be slaves to the patriarchy.  Amanda and Melissa took it upon themselves to bear the weight of what people might think about John Edwards merely because they worked for him, a weight that I see no evidence of John Edwards actually asking them to bear. (I set aside all the conspiracy theories about how they were "forced" to resign; I have seen no evidence that either Amanda or Melissa is a liar, and I have enough respect for both to believe that either would spell it out plain if they felt shoved out by John Edwards.  Just because it is more comforting to believe differently doesn't make truth.)  They could have ridden this out, particularly once the blogosphere rose to surround and embrace and defend them.  After all, memory in politics and media is only as long as the next thing that someone can throw up on the wall and make stick.  This thing would have blown over quickly, I predict - but for the hue and cry that made this moment out to be a litmus test for all women bloggers on the left rather than what it it was, which was the ramblings of a petty man who speaks for virtually no one, that Edwards shot down by refusing to fire them.


And thus without meaning to reinforced the societal, sexist, patriarchal message that where women in power are concerned, we should volunteer to sacrifice ourselves professionally to "larger goals" even when we're not asked to do it, in a way that men in power rarely are asked to do and are certainly not expected to do.  Each unwittingly reinforced the idea of women volunteering to be sacrificial lambs in the professional arena. 


The very thing that most folks who championed their cause claimed they were being made into by Mr. "I Can't Even Claim Most Catholics Agree With Me" Donohue's calling them out.


It is my view that neither woman should have quit, and I say that as someone who was offended by some of Amanda's past writing (but not by Melissa's, which had a fundamentally different tone to it.)  I took their apology at their word, and that was the end of it for me, a person who is not a Catholic and certainly not a member of the teensy-weensy Catholic League, but still a religious person who has routinely recoiled at the unthinking way that people on the left disrespect others in a blanket fashion when they write about religious issues which they don't like, ignoring the very right to individualism they champion ( i.e. by forgetting that their words will be read by individual religious voters, not a faceless undivided mass of "Christofascists" who are so tiny a fucking minority of both voters and self-professed religious people in this country that we should stop validating and empowering them by making them out to be the boogeyman that everyone should be worried about all the time, rather than the more than 100,000,000 religious people who are actually....religious and who while they may not give out kudos and congratulations for all behavior or thinking that feminists on the left hold near and dear (including things like elective abortion).  Forgetting that the majority of religious people have proven in the electoral arena that they are willing to at least Let Go and Let God on the same issues that the miniscule "Christofacist Right" will not, and through their votes provide support even if not agreement or approval -- but if they are not assumed guilty by association with the same Right Wing Religious Noise Machine that the left inadvertently makes sure gets heard through our own over-focus on their bullshit.


In the end, who do you blame for that? Mr. Donohue, who played his political hand? Mr. Edwards, who both appeared to remain true to his personal principles and true to these women at the same time? Amanda and Melissa for having given up? Or society itself for having created a political climate where these types of distracting things even can happen in political campaigning simply because of the words of someone who represents -- if we take his puffery seriously, and I don't -- exactly 0.3% of the folks who titularly share his subset of faith by being members of the Catholic League? 


We are, I would argue, getting angry about the wrong things.


Here's what I am angry about, as a womanist (figuring I have continued to forfeit the title "feminist".)  I'm angry that we as women don't stand our ground.  I'm angry that we as women also continue to want to have it both ways:  we want the power to silence our enemies for injudicious statements when they further our chosen dogma yet want to cry victim of sexism when the same tactics are used on our allies.  If there is one thing I have learned, however, it is that we cannot have it both ways.  That's not rocket science.  If we are seeking a new paradigm, and I think everyone that loves women is whether we call a particular issue "feminist" or not, then we have to start from the proposition that there is no quarter, no matter what our personal beliefs, and that if we are acting on principle we have to be prepared to defend our principles.  Starting with the principle that Amanda can write what she chooses to write and is woman enough to stand strong when what she has written is criticized for it, whether one thinks she should be or not, OUTSIDE of the echo chamber that is the left-wing blogosphere.


Because it is only outside that echo chamber that real change will be made.  No matter how much the blogosphere has come to believe in its own importance of late.


I feel bad for Amanda and Melissa, that they have now chosen not to stay around and do the jobs they were hired to do when everything was squashed.  Having high regard for their work, I know they would have excelled at it just as they excel at blogging their perspectives.  But I do not feel bad for them because I believe that they were told to "shut their pie hole" because they were women by anyone who actually mattered.  The only person who sent that message clearly shouldn't have mattered to anyone who doesn't let foolishness distract them, and the persons who do actually matter (the Edwards' campaign or other candidates) didn't say it.  They didn't even imply it outside of the realm of "I don't agree with what you say, and reject how you say it, when it comes to what you expressed about Catholic religion." -- a particular heat in the kitchen that any savvy blogger better be able to handle, and that both Amanda and Melissa have shown they could have handled - if they chose too.  Heat that would have been levied at them if they were both men, in this context.


I am happy, however, that Amanda and, in her less sarcastic way, Melissa, have decided to use this learning experience to continue to fight their fight, and am confident that in the end they will have served their cause more than in the jobs they have given up.  I have nothing but love for that, in keeping with a core principle of Black feminism:  we as women are powerful beyond belief, so don't you ever give that power away.  Indeed, as of this morning following a wingnut denial-of-service attack, Amanda's back again with both gloves off.  Since of course no matter what I think of what they say when they are on a roll, I'd fight to the death for their right to say it - despite what I suspect would be deep disdain for my particular views on issues involving women which they hold held near and dear to their hearts. We may not see either the theory or methods of feminism the same way most of the time, and most of the time we don't, but in that they are All Woman.

Tags: Gender, Pandagon, Shakespeare's Sister, John Edwards (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 58 comments

  •  Very well reasoned argument. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, mommyof3

    Excellent diary, Shanikka.  Some dumb moves on all sides (except for Donohue, who played this smartly, but is a purely evil prick).  Hopefully a learning experience from this point forward.

    Stop McCain and the GOP. Support Barack Obama and the DNC.

    by DaveV on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:22:07 AM PDT

  •  No offense, but (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    oblomov, Rex Manning, sandbox

    no one is going to read a 4,000-word diary. you should perhaps work on narrowing your thoughts down.

    Only Democrats need to "pay for" any of their proposals; it's just understood that Republicans are "fiscal conservatives." - Atrios

    by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:22:51 AM PDT

    •  okay, "no one" is figurative. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      phenry, Pager, Rex Manning

      obviously, the guy above me did. but your readership will be a mere fraction of what it would've been had the diary been shorter, or at least had graphic elements to break up the text.

      Only Democrats need to "pay for" any of their proposals; it's just understood that Republicans are "fiscal conservatives." - Atrios

      by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:24:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        fabooj, TheBlaz, mommyof3

        If DKos isn't anti-intellectual I would hope people would take the time to read this.

        If we are going to be taken seriously as an option to the MSM, I hope we wouldn't want things dumbed down.

        •  It's not about anti-intellectualism (6+ / 0-)

          It's about an overabundance of worthy content on the Web making it difficult for all but a dedicated few to devote meaningful time to any of it. I would have to quit my job if I wanted to read and fully appreciate all the posts that come in via my RSS reader from various sites every day, and I've always had the impression that my personal blogroll leans toward the small side. As it is I end up skimming so much that vast quantities of it end up making little to no lasting impression on me at all.

          The chances that I'm going to read to the end of a diary of this length are close to zero, no matter how worthwhile it is. Sorry, but that's just the way it is, unless you can find about 8 extra hours in the day for me.

      •  Agreed. (6+ / 0-)

        There are some amazing points in this diary but most of us are trying to work.

        Either post this at night when we all have more time to read it or edit.

        Brevity is the soul of wit. I firmly believe that.

        And Shannika, I don't think you are anti-feminist at all. From the parts I read, you are right on the money.

        Now I suppose I'll be accused of being anti-feminist and a speed reader.

        Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

        by Pager on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:32:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I Don't Know (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        smintheus, vcmvo2, BachFan, dmsarad

        I read it.

        I'm always delighted to read something longer than, "OMG, Breaking ..."  And then a link and three-hundred filler characters.

        I've recommended this diary ...

        I'm not sure that I agree with all of it, or maybe I'm not sure what I agree with or what I don't.

        But I wonder if Amanda's perspective on the Catholic Church to her was not the feminist one, in that she saw her rants as a critique of the Catholic Church's often Neanderthal attitude toward women and their place in society.

        In that sense, perhaps she and others have perceived the Donohue reaction as being anti-Feminist and the fact that she ultimately felt she had to step down from the Edwards campaign ...  Well, this was an extension of a prevailing anti-Feminism.

        "Truck Stop Women," a New Film By Phil Gramm and John McCain.

        by bink on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:33:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm tired too of the long = bad idea (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rippen Kitten

          that grips so many people here. If something is good, thoughtful, well research, well written...then the more of it, the better. It's a gift to find a good diary. By contrast, doesn't matter how short a vacuous diary is, it is still too long. This one became a little repetitive toward the end, so editing down would have helped. But brevity by itself isn't necessarily a virtue.

          I agree with much of what shanikka says. The left blogosphere needs to stop holding itself to a different standard. There's certainly an echo chamber quality to a lot of what is said in leftopia, which gives rise to a lot of hyperbole and self-congratulation. The complaints against AM and MM were based on what they'd written. If you want to enter the politcal world based on your blogging, then you'd better be able to defend your blogging.

          On the other hand, I thought AM and MM both should have resigned once it became clear that their blog posts were going to become a distraction for the Edwards campaign. In fact, I thought that their semi-apologies ('If anybody misunderstood, then....') were ridiculous. The posts were saying rude things about certain Christians. If that's what you're about, then why pretend that others misunderstand your point?

    •  No Offense (21+ / 0-)

      Taken.  Yet having had many 4,000 diaries read (and a 10,000 plus one too!) I think I'll just stick to writing my way. Since I do not write to get attention, just to make my points however "not worth it" the lengthy medium may be to others.

      •  Good on you (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        smintheus, vcmvo2, TheBlaz, Pager, marykk

        Write at length on the topics that interest you. You're one of the best writers around and if one group doesn't want to read you, the people who want in-depth, thoughtful analysis will.

        And for those who say they don't have time to read it now -- hot list it, for heaven's sake. Use the site's tools. Come back and read it this evening or over the weekend when you have time. It's not going to kill you to spend ten minutes reading something instead of 15 seconds.

        As to your topic ... I have a lot of mixed feelings about the whole thing, some I'm still trying to sort out. I think I'm coming down on your side of things, wanting women to stand their ground more. But it's a complex issue and I'm still mulling it over. There are cases when strategic retreat is the wiser course. This doesn't feel like that's the case right now, but I want to follow my thought processes all the way to the bitter end on it. Your essay is prodding that along, so thanks for it.

        •  It's a Hard One (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          SusanG, vcmvo2, esquimaux, TheBlaz

          Which is why I have kept shut for days; even as the maelstrom of reacting took over everywhere, it did not seem to feel all that easy to me and I too had very mixed feelings (still do, which I probably should have made clearer.)

          I do agree with this:   Sometimes strategic retreat is indeed the best policy.  This time, I'm not convinced that it was -- for what I guess you could call feminist reasons.

          •  It's also difficult ... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Ahianne

            because it's hard to know how the two writers themselves categorize themselves. WE are categorizing them as women and framing this as a feminist issue. They, however, may be viewing through the lens of "blogger legitimacy" or even "young activists" (sorry, I don't know their ages). Or even, as some have suggested in this thread, a secular versus religious issue.

            Through the women's eyes, they may be viewing it entirely as revolving around the question of whether bloggers have a legitimate place at the campaign table. Now I know Amanda at least has talked about feeling it's an uppity woman issue. BUT there may be more to it than that. I'm not suggesting she's lying, but it's essential to recognize in the political world it may be wisest to pick up the most clarifying weapon at hand, even if other frames of the issue are a bigger part of the mix for the person involved.

            •  You Are Absolutely Right (0+ / 0-)

              When you say it is hard to know how either characterizes this event.  Reading between the lines one could theoretically argue that Amanda does see sexism as playing a role in how things went down over and above the original statements by "I am an Idjit" Donohue from her posts since she resigned, but I then must remind myself ot separate her style (i.e. a bit glib and sarcastic, something she and can share when our hackles are up LOL) from her substance when discerning meaning for myself, so cannot say for sure.

              •  Oh, and another point (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Buffalo Girl

                (Sorry my thoughts are so scattered about this.)

                One of the points that I've seen made very, very little of, which surprises me, is the role of a hired writer. People with writing skills, who make their living off of it, often move from "master" to "master." One year you might be working on a campaign for Campbell's soup, the next year you might be writing press releases for the Sierra Club, the next year you might be writing a white paper for disaster preparedness for the American Red Cross, and the next year you might be a hiree of a campaign.

                At what point do you admit that past writing really has no bearing on what you are writing now for your current employer? This is a real danger people who want to make their living off writing need to consider. How can who you write for today and what you write today affect your career ten years from now? Is it legitimate to look at letters to the editor you've had published in your free time? Should you really have to answer for doing what you felt you were paid (or called if you're an amateur) to write in a previous life? Should your personal musings really be part of your "professional" portfolio?

                I think this last question, which is going to apply to a lot more people as MySpace and Live Journal postings become more scrutinized, is being overlooked.

                •  Writers (0+ / 0-)

                  Indeed have what you describe as a career hazard. The "cold record" can indeed be just that, decades later.

                  I'd argue in another context however, that the one advantage of dust-ups like this is that it does put the spotlight on a fundamental issue in this country:  the right to work.  We are an "at will" nation, meaning at a practical level, at the employer's whim.  Well, when employment is at will, a person has no "right" to employment.  It is a privilege granted or taken away solely because of the predilictions of the employer.  Thus, everything from whether your feet are too big to whether or not your boss plays golf with you to whether you wrote on a blog that "George Bush is a big old weenie" can be used against you -- or not -- without you having much ability to stop it.

                  In other words, at some point the conversation about how America views work, and workers, is implicated. Writers may be the canaries in the mine in that discussion, particularly now that so many people in America have become writers through the miracle that is blogging and the Internet.

        •  Good point. I forgot about hotlisting. (0+ / 0-)

          Believe it or not, sometimes the obvious doesn't always occur to all of us.

          Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

          by Pager on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:08:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I enjoy everything you write (0+ / 0-)

        The length never bothers me, because the style and clarity with which you write - something that I wish I could do as well as you do - grabs my attention so well that I don't even realize how long or short your pieces are.

        Keep it up.

        Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

        by Linnaeus on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:59:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for writing, Shanikka (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        marykk

        As someone raised Catholic who neither professes nor practices my religion, I found your diary speaking for me.

        When it comes to talking about Catholics, I often can't tell the difference between the talk of hip, modern lefties and the Kluxers my grandparents and great-grandparents had to deal with in southern Indiana.

    •  I read it (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      fabooj, smintheus, TheBlaz

      Why do important thoughts have to be expressed as bumperstickers?

      "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." - Voltaire

      by DrFrankLives on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:40:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ChurchofBruce, smintheus

      Maybe some pie charts and a funny political cartoon? Or a Top Ten list. Most people can manage to get through Top Ten lists before the burden of reading quells their interest.

      Words are cumbersome. Pictures are where it's at.

      Excellent diary, Shanikka, and I agree with you.

      So, why do we hate Obama today?

      by TheBlaz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:47:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I see a trend. (0+ / 0-)

        What I find truly annoying is comments that take a valid point, use grade-school reductio ad absurdum to distort it beyond recognition, and then conclude with the commenter heartily patting themselves on the back for their enlightenment.

        Thank you so, so much for dispelling me of my horrible anti-intellectual notions. You have truly shown that words do have power, and that together with words, we can win the day.

        Only Democrats need to "pay for" any of their proposals; it's just understood that Republicans are "fiscal conservatives." - Atrios

        by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:24:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Disagree (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SusanG, vcmvo2, esquimaux

      When something is compelling and has a point, reading is easier.  I've seen shorter diaries that just killed me because there was no point.  Besides, unlike most diarist who print long diaries, shanikka has used formatting!

      Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

      by fabooj on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:56:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am somewhat surprised you are spending (0+ / 0-)

    that much time worrying about an issue surrounding two people resigning when today 13,000 people are losing their jobs for Chrysler. At least these 2 women have a career in blogging. As for the controversy between Edwards and the Catholic league is concerned, why even bother this early in the process. There will be plenty more crap like that in the next 18 months.

    You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

    by tazz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:32:50 AM PDT

    •  Actually (9+ / 0-)

      I've written about layoffs and other unfashionable things before, and probably will again, when folks haven't cared a whit about them.  So the implied criticism directed at me is a bit unfair.  I write about what I feel like writing about at any given moment.  But that doesn't mean that things not written about are off my radar.  One can worry, after all, about more than one thing at one time.

      Although I agree with you that there will be plenty more 'crap' in the next 20 months. =)

      •  Not a criticism (0+ / 0-)

        I wrote the comment because I do recall your past posts. I agree with your diary's premise, I just question the importance or meaning to others outside the Catholic religion. Personally, I wouldn't support Edwards because I vowed never to support the candidacy of anyone who voted for the war resolution even if they apologized and groveled on the ground. There are 4 candidates who would make good presidents who didn't vote for the resolution. It is just my small contribution to making legislators accountable for their votes in Congress.

        You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

        by tazz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:41:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Object to this line of argument (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SusanG, majcmb1

      There's not a requirement to blog on "the most important issue of the day." People should be allowed latitude to blog on what interests them, and not be criticized for it as if they are insensitive to more important issues. Otherwise, we'd have 300 diaries a day on Iraq.

      Did you make this same comment in every one of the dozens of diaries about the Edwards Bloggers, many of which made the rec list?... I didn't think so.

      Have you written a diary about the Chrysler layoffs? Not yet it appears.

      Sorry to flame your comment here; nothing personal. I have recently seen at least a few dozen comments on this general theme and they are a pet peeve of mine.

  •  The Obligatory Tip Jar (29+ / 0-)

    Although one day in a future I'll probably never see I will write about my disdain for them, and how I actually find that they reinforce some very negative things about the blogosphere and get seriously into the way of real coalition building.  Since I'm late for work, and might not look at this again till evening, I didn't want folks to think I was cutting and running without giving them a chance to express their pleasure or -- more likely -- displeasure.

    •  Definitely not displeasure (0+ / 0-)

      This is perhaps one of the most interesting diaries that I've read lately. And that is saying something as I do diary rescue and thus read a lot of diaries!

      I will hotlist this though to give me more time to analyze it. But essentially your reasoning is sound. I really don't think you have to, or should, apologize for your analysis. That's my tip, fwiw ;-)

  •  I'm really interested in this topic BUT (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    phenry

    ...you could REALLY have used an editor to cut this down a bit.

    Just saying.  Now I gotta go back to work, and I haven't read the whole thing yet!

    HorsesAss.org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press

    by willkk on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:34:33 AM PDT

  •  Yes it's those damned athieists (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, Loquatrix, BlueinColorado

    If only they'd shut their mouths we could have a meeting fo the minds in the reeasonable centrist middle ground of Democrats for Life and the American family Association.

    A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ~Edward R. Murrow

    by ActivistGuy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:37:09 AM PDT

    •  Forgive me for Asking (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      majcmb1, TheBlaz, marykk

      But did you see me blame "atheists" for anything?  And if you did, could you show me where?  Because otherwise your sarcasm doesn't seem to bear a relationship to anything that I actually wrote, which is what I'd like to think you were responding to.  

      As I mentioned above, I think a lot of what occurs is grounded in fear of religious people, projection about what religious people think or will do, that results from seeing them as an undefined indiscriminate mass instead of the individuals that they are.  

    •  Yep. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene

      Thus, any leftist political candidate is a fool if he lets that minority of disdain be the deciding factor in how to react to anything.  Anyone who doesn't accept this - whether or not they like it, and I'm not advocating that anyone like it - is simply refusing to see the political landscape for what it really is at present.

      In other words, atheists should keep their yaps shut so as not to turn off the overwhelming majority of religious voters.  

      On that basis, then, black people should keep their yaps shut so as not to turn off the overwhelming majority of white voters.  

      And gay people should keep their yaps shut so as not to turn off the overwhemling majority of straight voters.  

      And women should have kept their yaps shut so as not to turn off the overwhelming majority of male voters (100% of voters, at the time).  

      And people without medical insurance should keep their yaps shut so as not to offend the overwhelming majority who have it.  

      And people who hate the occupation of Iraq should have kept their yaps shut so as not to offend the overwhelming majority who were in favour of it.

      And on.

      And on.

      Surely, it is historically proven that minorities and underdogs keeping our yaps shut so as not to offend those who would deny us our rights and freedoms is the exact way to go about securing those rights and freedoms.

      •  Actually (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        majcmb1, marykk

        On its face that paragraph was about accepting reality in politics -- and why a candidate who does not do so when it comes to the religiousity of a majority of voters is a fool.

        I see nothing in it about telling atheists to "shut up" and, indeed, I made a point of expressing my view that anyone has a right to say or write anything they please.  What this event is about, however, is the delusion that exercising that right comes without cost.

        And thanks for telling me, a minority woman, about what other minorities should or should not do.  As anyone who just read the last 4,000 words knows, the one thing I personally have never advocated is people shutting up.  Your assertion that somehow this is a message my diary sends seems grounded more in projection than in anything I actually wrote.

        •  Actually (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          kdrivel

          I am making this point about minorities because I know that you are a minority woman.

          Atheists are a tiny minority in this country and discrimination is active.  For example, you would get elected to any political office long, long before I ever could.  George H.W. Bush even thinks it's fine for the President to go around saying atheists aren't even American citizens.  On a personal level, this doesn't bother me in the slightest, as Pappy Bush is an idiot and I am unelectable for a million other reasons, but as a matter of general principle, it matters a lot.

          Atheists are such an easy target precisely because such a massive majority are religious; it's so easy for any public figure to stomp non-religious people and not only have nobody of any importance care enough to stand up to them, but also have a large audience ready to actively join in the stomping or at least turn a blind eye to it, so easy is it to be a bigot towards atheists.  

          But trying to crush anti-religious voices out of the public discourse is the same old dog whistle to the same old conservative bigots who wouldn't let you have your rights if they could possibly help it, so I can't understand why you think our candidates should work with the bigotry rather than fight it.  I think they need to do more, not less, to stand up to the religious intimidation of the right wing.

          The left wing blogosphere absolutely lambasts the fuck out of people who discriminate against gay people or black people or women in general, but there's a sort of generalized shuffling of feet when they "only" discriminate against non-religious people.  There's an overall sense that we can't lambast the fuck out of these bigots, no, rather we somehow have to embrace them and agree that while it's not nice that they batter anti-religious people out of the public discourse, it's OK to keep doing it anyway because it's being done with religion for cover.  It's kow-towing, plain and simple.

          By "accepting reality in politics" in the matter of religious tolerance -- i.e., accepting and allowing that the right wing will continue to try to crush non-religious voices from the public square -- you seem to be setting up the matter of religion as a special case where intolerant attitudes should be allowed to go unchallenged.  

          Yes, the reality is that there's going to be some moral outrage whipped up by wingnuts whose job it is to whip up moral outrage against Democrats, if you have a Catholic critic on your campaign staff.  But where you advocate treading carefully around this manufactured moral outrage, which is what I take you to mean when you say "seeing the political landscape for what it really is at present," I advocate confronting it with all the vigour with which we confront them when they're trying to exclude all the other groups they hate.  

          Confronting bigotry is where progress comes from.  I don't think we back off just because it's religious bigotry we're dealing with; I think we ammo up, firmly square ourselves behind our principles of religious tolerance and our Constitutional right to freedom of religion, and ready ourselves to fight it out with anyone who says otherwise.  It may indeed have a political cost attached to it, but fighting the establishment never comes cheap and it always seems to be worth it in the end.

      •  Funny (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        majcmb1

        That paragraph, I got the exact opposite impression from it.  

        Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

        by fabooj on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:04:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  AMEN (0+ / 0-)

    Nicely put.

    Now duck.

    "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." - Voltaire

    by DrFrankLives on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:40:17 AM PDT

  •  Any friends you'd lose over this... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    weren't worth having anyway.

    Nice Diary, but you use to many parentheticals.

    Embrace Hope
    Barack Obama: Putting the "U" back in "USA"

    by GrimReefa on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:40:51 AM PDT

  •  I only read a third of this diary... (0+ / 0-)

    but had to rec it once I did.

    I'm going to read the rest, but your call about this being about politics is spot on.

  •  This was a well-written and provocative diary. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    majcmb1

    I don't think that it will lose you any friends, though.  

    Patriarchies make the same demand to give yourself up for the team upon men.  Football teams and the military are two examples.  For a third example, we saw it a year ago in the pathetic behavior of Mr. Whittington, who blamed himself for getting shot by Dick Cheney.  

    Perhaps a more accurate characterization would be an internalized reaction of the beta to give herself or himself up for the alpha.  

    Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

    by Yamaneko2 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:48:03 AM PDT

  •  excellent post (0+ / 0-)

    I had not really been following this controversey very closely. I'm one of those who voted "avoiding it like the plague" when Kos asked how closely we were following the nominations race.
    You sum up the situation very well I think, and I believe your arguments are valid and strong.
    As for the length of your diary, sometimes it takes space to make your point. Certainly there are many who might skip a diary of this length, just as there are those who skip diaries because of the subject matter, or the author.
    It all depends on your aims. For some authors here, reaching the widest possible audience is a very important goal, for others of us, we just appreciate the opportunity to have our say in a public forum.
    I don't know what your ultimate goals as a writer are, but I for one think you argue clearly and effectively.

  •  Interesting essay (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sean mykael, Loquatrix, TruthOfAngels

    I disagree with the premise that there is an anti-religion left, however. And I do not think Amanda has anything to apologize for in her approach to religion.

    The idea that we should not criticize someone's religion is a bit too simple to me. As Americans we must support religious tolerance - what people choose to believe is their business.

    But that should NOT extend into politics. We do not need to let someone use religion to support socially backward policy. Someone like Donohue is playing like a fiddle people who buy the idea that "well if they're coming at this from a religious perspective we can't criticize what they're saying."

    Conservatives figured out in the 1970s that they can use religion as a cover for their hate, because it's something most see as unassailable. The irony is that people like the Ayatollah Khomeini learned exactly the same thing in their fights against Arab governments.

    What this episode shows is that we haven't yet figured out how to attack those who advance misogyny and bigotry through religion. To do that, we need a better approach to how we discuss religion. An individual's right to believe what they want to is inviolable. It's probably best if we not make fun of their personal religious choice.

    But we are making a massive mistake if we extend that to staying away from their support of socially backward policies.

    Anyone who opposes abortion rights is supporting a misogynist agenda. If they use religion to do that, then they are in the wrong, and if we want to say they're making a misogynist interpretation of religion, then we should do that. Since they brought their faith into the political arena, they made that faith subject to debate and criticism.

    If people don't want their religion to be criticized, they need to keep it in the home and outside the political sphere. If they can take the criticism, more power to them.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:52:40 AM PDT

    •  Ive been strugling with this lately... (0+ / 0-)

      and I am finding this subject very difficult to talk about without coming off as a complete dick...but I'm going to give it a shot anyways because issues of faith have been occupying a large portion of my thoughts as of late and I really need to figure this out.

      It's probably best if we not make fun of their personal religious choice.

      If I, as a 30 year old man told you that I believed in Santa Claus...

      You may not make fun of me...but you would likely be thinking some pretty interesting thoughts about me...I would think that if I told somebody that I believed in Santa Claus, that the person on the receiving end of that comment would have a very hard time finding me very credible.

      Now, if as a 30 year old man I told you that I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is his son, and I believe that Jesus is going to return from the dead to bring us all to heaven.

      In this case, if the person I told this too thought about my belief in God the same way they thought about my belief in Santa Claus...that person would likely be considered a bigot.

      I'm having trouble lately with what I see as an intellectual inconsistency.

      Not quite sure how to handle it.

      Blue House Diaries...because there's more to life than politics.

      by sean mykael on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 08:22:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sometimes we have to be inconsistent (0+ / 0-)

        I don't believe in god. And there will always be a part of me, ALWAYS, that wonders in the back of my mind, "what is wrong with this person, what trauma or failure did they experience, that they believe a god exists?"

        And yet I can usually ignore that voice when it's someone who in their outward actions, and in their politics, shares my views. If it made Martin Luther King, Jr happy to believe in god, well, I can deal with that, because he showed himself to have a shitload of courage and genius in other ways.

        In the end, intellectual consistency is overrated.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:30:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why (0+ / 0-)

          Would you assume that someone had "trauma" or a "problem" (i.e. defects) just because they don't see things your way where religion, or anything else for that matter, is concerned.  That's so.......Didn't anyone ever tell you that you are not omniscient (and you're not, you're just a man and one that still has most of his life to live at that) and therefore simply cannot know everything? I do hope you grow out of that type of thinking because, as I said to you once, you have a lot of good to contribute politically.  But having once been like you present yourself -- as someone unable to step out of his own perspective empathically into the shoes of someone with whom you don't agree and understand the potential for equal validity of their perspective -- I've learned why such a world view really results in little other than people comunicating at cross-purposes.

      •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

        As a 30 year old man, if you still believe in the magic behind the myth of Santa Claus and try to recreate it in your own life, whether you believe in a physical embodiment of Santa Claus, I'd say you were a pretty cool dude that had managed to escape the dogmatic cynicism our society manages to drop on most "adults" somewhere around your age.

        Perhaps you can handle these "intellectual inconsistencies" by accepting that you personally don't know.  Just as I personally don't know.  And are not in a position to know.  All we have is faith, either our faith that there is a God, or that there is not.  Neither hypothesis can be falsified in a scientifically controlled fashion, and it is a fool's errand to try and engage in theological arguments as if it is possible.

        On the other hand, as someone who is 15 years older than you and nearly 20 older than Eugene, and who comes from a time when people were raised to understand that in a community, one does not go around assuming or asserting "defect" or "trauma" or "ignorance" in those who do not see things their way.  That type of black-and-white thinking is truly the province of the young and no matter how much the young hate hearing that they will see things differently when they are not so young, it's true.

        And I say that as someone who was just as convinced that I knew "the right answers" at both your ages as you may be now.  And was proven wrong.

        The only thing I'll add is that everyone must come to their own, individual conclusion, and if you do that, whatever the conclusion, it's all good.

        •  and thats just it... (0+ / 0-)

          I don't know...and I don't see how anybody else can know either...

          Yet just the other day I received an email explaining in detail just what the rapture was going to be like. Down to the time that it was going to happen. (they didn't mention which time zone)

          I read not too long ago

          That 80% of America believes in a 2nd coming...and that 40% believe that its going to happen in the next 50 years.

          I think that has some serious implications for how we view the world.

          Take global warming for instance...if somebody knows that Jesus is going to be back in the next 50 years to save them and take them to heaven...is solving the global warming problem really all that big of a deal?

          I guess it is with issues like this that I have a hard time with problem coming to their own conclusions.

          Blue House Diaries...because there's more to life than politics.

          by sean mykael on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 08:15:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Food for Thought (0+ / 0-)

            Take global warming for instance...if somebody knows that Jesus is going to be back in the next 50 years to save them and take them to heaven...is solving the global warming problem really all that big of a deal?

            It should be - since the Bible's pretty clear that God expects man and woman to to be stewards of the Earth.  And when I talk about environmental issues in a religious setting, that's at the heart of what we talk about. Nobody's mentioned the possibility of the impending rapture as letting us off the hook ;)

            But you raising the question leads to another for me:  did you personally know that this is what the Bible says about environmentalism?  IME, most folks on the left have no idea.  Thus, they are lacking a core tool in having dialogue on the issue.  They just assume that because there are some folks who believe from the bottom of their heart that the rapture is "imminent" (5 years, 50 years, 500 years it doesn't matter, since most religious people also believe that Our (i.e. man's) sense of time is not God's sense of time), they must not care about things in the future or, even worse, would be in a hurry to speed things up.  But has anyone tested the hypothesis, really?  Or just assumed it?

            It's an important question to get answered, IMO.

            •  Hey shanikka... (0+ / 0-)

              I'm at work now and cant really talk, but Id really like to continue this conversation a little bit if you're still down...ill check back after work.

              Hope you're having a good day :)

              Blue House Diaries...because there's more to life than politics.

              by sean mykael on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:26:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It is important... (0+ / 0-)

              Leviticus says...

              The land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.
              Lev. 25:23-24.

              Which would certainly imply that we are supposed to take care of the planet

              but Genesis says

              Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
              Genesis 1:26.

              Which seems to say the earth is yours to do with as you please.

              Now maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, but then that just presents a whole other set of problems. If the Bible is so vague and open to interpretation by anybody who reads. Does it really even mean anything?

              Just because I believe that God says were supposed to take care of the earth...

              Doesn't mean that Pat Robertson isn't thinking that strip mining, clear cutting, and over fishing are A-OK.

              Yet both of us could easily use the Bible to support your ideas.

              It seems to me that even on issues that are clearly spelled out, people like to pick and choose which parts suit the ideas they've already formed about the world. This presents a particular problem for Catholics, as the Pope John Paul has said...

              This Revelation is definitive; one can only accept it or reject it. One can accept it, professing belief in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, the Son, of the same substance as the Father and the Holy Spirit, who is Lord and the Giver of life. Or one can reject all of this.

              Yet I certainly don't see many Catholics following this passage...

              If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

              Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

              And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

              And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

              But I suppose it makes some sense that nobody would follow that passage...

              because after all...the Bible also says...

              You shall not murder

              It's all so confusing

              Blue House Diaries...because there's more to life than politics.

              by sean mykael on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 06:28:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

      Anyone who opposes abortion rights is supporting a misogynist agenda.

      Nonsense.  Bullshit.  Poppycock.  People oppose abortion rights for many reasons, most fundamentally religious ones that have to do with where the power to grant or take away life should rest (and for most religious people, the answer is "Not with Man").  Some of them also are misogynists, but there is no proof that the reason for opposition to abortion is misogyny, rather than culturally misogynist conduct being the vehicle through which some crazy people let their opposition be known.

      Slogans do not reason make.  Women's rights are losing ground because for 30 years hard-and-fast assertions which indict the majority of women in this country who are deeply troubled spiritually and morally about elective abortion even as they understand emotionally the reasons for the choice in most women) make enemies out of what should be logical allies.  I find the continuing insistence on rhetoric and strategies that accuse people with good faith opposition and concerns that are nonetheless willing to have a dialogue of compromise is mastubatory:  it may feel great, calling these folks "women hating".  But it gets you absolutely nowhere in terms of actually protecting women's rights.

      Just food for thought.

      It's probably best if we not make fun of their personal religious choice.

      I'd agree this is probably best.  Since of course such making fun can go both ways.

  •  You have an excellent way of putting (0+ / 0-)

    your thoughts into words, but I have to agree you need to shorten the Diary.  I was spellbound, but then halfway through it, I started trying to hurry and then I missed the meanings and had to read the second half again, but had to stop to do some other pressing things and the last half is still kind of a blur.

    It is kind of like a speech.  One to five minutes could cover a lot.  A teacher told me that people lose interest after a few minutes.

    Maybe you should have broken it up into two diaries, but I don't know.  I don't write diaries myself. I admired you all the way through it for writing many things I more or less thought.

    Fantastic diary.

    I used to be good friends with a Catholic family, until they moved away.  They used birth control and they drank a lot, which is what I had always heard they did:-) much to the consternation of other stricter religions.  None of the religions really approve of each other.  They think the others are so wrong, for what that is worth.

    I went to one of the girl's blog last night and a lot of trolls or republicans were being arrogant and rude.  I didn't comment because I hadn't signed up.

  •  This whole thing (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    smintheus

    I was extremely disappointed in their resignations and considering I was never impressed with either as writers or "feminists", I didn't know why it bothered me.  As I read more these past two days, I realized it was because Edwards did back them and instead of standing up for themselves, standing up to all they blog about, they rolled.  Very disappointing.

    Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

    by fabooj on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:00:25 AM PDT

  •  So you blame Melissa and Amanda ? (0+ / 0-)

    Hmmm.

    and you believe that Edwards "had their back" but that they wimped out ?

    Ok  - I can see for the campaign that is the best spin that Edwards could possibly put on it.

    All it takes is a little credulity ;)

    Everyone detected with AIDS should be tattooed in the upper forearm, to protect common-needle users, and on the buttocks... -- William F. Buckley, Jr

    by tiponeill on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:08:36 AM PDT

    •  Blame (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ahianne

      is a loaded word.  One that I did not use, except to ask the question "Who do you blame" -- which I did not answer.  For a reason, and it wasn't because I "blame" either Amanda or Melissa.

      I do believe that both folded, when they shouldn't have.  For the reasons I expressed.

      As far as Edwards campaign goes, I don't work for him, even as I support both him and Barack Obama.  I also see no evidence that anyone working for Edwards is interested in my stated opinion.

  •  I blame Edwards... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    smintheus, marykk, Paver, sandbox

    for not vetting his hires.

    LBJ would not have hired Hunter S Thompson to work for his campaign.

    Nixon would not have hired PJ Orourke to work for him.

    Clinton would not have hired Matt Tabbi to work for her.

    Writers are held accountable for what they write, and politicians are in the business of trying to please as many people as possible, and if you hire people whose style is a bit abrasive you might run into some trouble.

    I prefer peace Wouldn't have to have one worldly possession But essentially I'm an animal So just what do I do with all the aggression?

    by jbou on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:30:06 AM PDT

  •  Also, that creepy Donohue and his (0+ / 0-)

    hatemongering....needs to be stopped:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    Amanda and Melissa are in a better situation now to deal with this, and boy, I hope they do.

    "Edwards Evolution, New Revolution" ~ http://www.eenrblog.com/

    by catchawave on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:31:29 AM PDT

    •  He should be stopped (0+ / 0-)

      But I don't know that Amanda's the one to do it.  The USCCB is who should do it, and they should be encouraged to do so, politely, quickly, and unequivocally.

      If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

      by marykk on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:52:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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