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  •  I Don't Want to Argue (1+ / 0-)

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    ConspiracyJack

    Because the issue is not my personal belief, at least not in this diary.  Nor is it Emerson or Thoreau:  I think I'd be on pretty solid ground by saying that most Black folks could give a flying you know what about either, assuming that they even remember learning about them in high school.  Individualism does have pretty low traction in the traditional black communities, yes - and folks who are "it's all about me" when it comes to their decisionmaking are considered to be.....at least in old school language....spoiled brats.  

    Or, candidly, acting white.

    It's hard for me to dialogue when you're speaking a language that assumes many things away.  When you say "Do you not believe that the issue of a woman's healthcare is about being responsible for that gift" in response to Ihlin, for example, here are all the things you are assuming away:

    a)  That abortion implicates only or even primarily the issue of health care - a situation we know is not the case.  

    b)  That abortion is health care of the "temple" (the literal body) - when there is no evidence that for the vast majority of women there is any positive physical benefit to abortion -- as opposed to what is a psychic benefit that may, or may not, be spiritually important.

    c)  That the absence of a prohibition against abortion using the word abortion means that in religious tradition there is no prohibition -- this conveniently overlooks both the prohibition against murder in the Bible and the religious belief that the human soul begins at conception.

    I recognize and support the right of women of all stripes to believe what they are going to believe, either way.  But truthfully the divide between whites and blacks in terms of how things like abortion are viewed won't change unless and until non-religious folks (or folks who believe that somehow abortion is "religion neutral") understand that even for those who tolerate the legality of it, who would not champion laws against it, it is a moral wrong, that most of the time is in furtherance of a previous moral wrong (promiscuity/fornication/whatever you want to call it.) And that the political "value added" of trying to tell people they are wrong about their moral views is.....zero, such that it is better to just let folks think what they are going to think and focus more on how one can come up with mutually agreeable compromise solutions.

    •  My comment wasn't meant as an argument (0+ / 0-)

      It was an honest effort to ask a question in my first statement. I meant no offense with the question. It was sincere.

      The other was an inquiry into healthcare for women since pregnancy overshadows a majority of their lifetime.

      In answer to your alphabetical list:
      a) Yes, the entire gamut of pregnancy is a health issue, abortion is a component of that. Women develop complications and lifelong afflictions from pregnancy. Women die from child birth. Women, or young women, have serious consequences for their lifetime from childbirth. Pregnancy is a medical condition and abortion as an extension of pregnancy deserves no less treatment in a medical capacity. Not in backrooms and alley ways.

      b) You say there is no evidence for the positive physical benefit of abortion. I would have to disagree. After the third child, a woman's body begins to break down, the uterine wall, her bladder and colon and health. And, you have separated psychological well-being from physical well-being as if the two were mutually exclusive.

      As far as the "religious belief" that the human soul begins at conception, that is not a universal belief.

      Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

      by bronte17 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 05:46:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  When does personhood begin? (0+ / 0-)

      c)  That the absence of a prohibition against abortion using the word abortion means that in religious tradition there is no prohibition -- this conveniently overlooks both the prohibition against murder in the Bible and the religious belief that the human soul begins at conception.

      I recognize and support the right of women of all stripes to believe what they are going to believe, either way.  But truthfully the divide between whites and blacks in terms of how things like abortion are viewed won't change unless and until non-religious folks (or folks who believe that somehow abortion is "religion neutral") understand that even for those who tolerate the legality of it, who would not champion laws against it, it is a moral wrong, that most of the time is in furtherance of a previous moral wrong (promiscuity/fornication/whatever you want to call it.) And that the political "value added" of trying to tell people they are wrong about their moral views is.....zero, such that it is better to just let folks think what they are going to think and focus more on how one can come up with mutually agreeable compromise solutions.

      There is a sound philosophical belief that personhood begins at birth. In a country founded on the concept of "governments...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," shouldn't it be up to those who believe personhood begins at conception to prove the opposing belief to be wrong?

      There was some promotion of the "genetic theory of individuality" some two decades ago, but that was a minority voice even within the antiabortion community, and they didn't directly address the "birthist" point of view. The use of the term "partial birth abortion" actually comes closer; it agitates birthists, telling them "You ought to oppose this procedure too."

      In addition, there is a religious belief that the souls of animals are equal to human souls. Should we understand that even for those who "tolerate the legality of" meat-eating, "who would not champion laws against" meat-eating, "it is a moral wrong?"

      I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

      by Judge Moonbox on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:05:56 PM PDT

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